Author Topic: Impeachment  (Read 2632 times)

Offline Yosho

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Re: Impeachment
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2019, 04:36:54 PM »
The arguments from the right are ridiculous.
If I saw you robbing a bank, and anonymously tipped off the police, and you get caught with gun in hand, and money in pockets, in the bank, and you are on security cameras, and all the evidence shows you are guilty, would your argument be "I am innocent because the anonymous tipster won't testify?"  Even if the whistle blower was Biden.  WHO CARES.  Cases are supposed to be tried on evidence.  PERIOD.  Whistleblower credibility has no play, except in the heads of the guilty.  Or "Quick... Look Over There....." 

Also, what happens if a citizen refuses to comply with a court-ordered subpoena?

To say Trump has NOT obstructed justice, or the Congressional investigation, is, as you say it, another round of ... retardation.

It matters for the reasons I listed above... President Trump released the record of the call - it is quite different than how the original whistleblower represented it.  No one expected Trump would release the call records. Think how differently the hearings would have gone if he hadn't.

How has the administration obstructed justice or the Congressional investigation?  They used executive privilege which has been used extensively by previous administrations and is an established righht of the Presidency. Congress could have used the courts to decide the issue, but they chose not to.  The branches are meant to be co-equal.  This impeachment without using the courts to decide executive privilege amounts to a power grab and abuse of power.  Should the administration now abuse their power and subpoena Reps. Schiff and Nadler as well as their key staff while investigating their abuse of Congressional powers, place them under oath by the FBI, and then try to entrap them into perjury?  I should hope not, but that's exactly what the House is doing here.  Let the courts as the third branch decide if the executive privilege claim is legitimate. 

A better question is, why was there a rush to impeach?  It was such a critical rush that important witnesses were not called, the rights of the minority were trampled on in an unprecedented way (sadly, what goes around comes around Dems), and again... the House didn't use the courts because this was too critical to wait?  Good to see this speeding along in the Senate now that the House has voted to impeach.  :roll:

Offline Baiter

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Re: Impeachment
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2019, 12:37:24 AM »
The fact is, The only person with any first-hand information on the matter that testified has stated that there was nothing out of the ordinary with the phone call. Everyone else that testified was not on the call and as i already showed in another thread, there are strong inclinations that at least one or more people on the stand have committed perjury.

"Ordinary" in Trumpian terms is not ordinary.  Keeping in mind that Trump hand picks yes-men, has them sign non-disclosures, and then forbids them to testify, I wouldn't expect a whole lot of whistle blowing from those with first hand experience.  That's why this situation is unique, and why Trump wants to id that person and get them out of his communications circle.  Fact is there was enough evidence gathered in this case, unlike the myriad of past cases, to draw up impeachment papers, without the whistleblower.


I've also repeated stated I'm not a right-winger. I'm a classic-liberal. I've also stated here that I do believe Trump may eventually abuse some power that will lead to him being impeached.

I can't say I've seen much liberalism in your posts, though you are kinda all over the place.
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Offline Yosho

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Re: Impeachment
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2019, 04:26:46 AM »

Is there anything here?  I’m not that impressed so far (honest journalism would follow up, which means we may never know), but it’s very disturbing that YouTube is attempting to suppress this information.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2019, 09:12:16 AM by Yosho »

Offline Don Panetta aka 404

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Re: Impeachment
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2019, 08:34:54 AM »
"Ordinary" in Trumpian terms is not ordinary.  Keeping in mind that Trump hand picks yes-men, has them sign non-disclosures, and then forbids them to testify

On June 28, 2012, Holder became the first U.S. Attorney General in history to be held in both criminal and civil contempt. He was held, by a bipartisan vote, in contempt by the House of Representatives in a 255–67 vote in response to his actions in Operation Fast and Furious, an operation which saw the US government give assault and military grade weapons given to Mexican cartels.

In response to being held in contempt Holder responded:
"I’m still enjoying what I’m doing, there’s still work to be done.  I’m still the President’s wing-man, so I’m there with my boy.  So we’ll see,"

Could you imagine if any of these so called Trump "yes men" actually said something like this out in public today? Could you imagine the twitter meltdown would you white hipster man-children would have?

I can't say I've seen much liberalism in your posts, though you are kinda all over the place.

The utter state of politics. Nobody can have an opinion of their own. If its "all over the place" you are the enemy.  You people are the living embodiment of fascism. Trump lives rent free in your minds every single day.

Offline Baiter

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Re: Impeachment
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2019, 05:30:24 PM »
Could you imagine if any of these so called Trump "yes men" actually said something like this out in public today? Could you imagine the twitter meltdown would you white hipster man-children would have?

It requires no imagination.  Remember this from 2 weeks ago?

Quote
Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell said he will follow direction from President Trump’s lawyers during an impeachment trial.

“Everything I do during this, I’m coordinating with White House counsel,” McConnell told Fox News host Sean Hannity on Thursday. “We’ll be working through this process, hopefully in a short period of time, in total coordination with the White House counsel’s office.”

“I’m going to take my cues from the president’s lawyers,” the Kentucky Republican added.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/going-to-take-my-cues-from-the-presidents-lawyers-mcconnell-to-coordinate-with-white-house-on-impeachment
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Offline RussG

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Re: Impeachment
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2019, 05:50:45 PM »
Baiter it didn't happen because I don't want to believe it!   Fake News!
 ;)

Offline Don Panetta aka 404

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Re: Impeachment
« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2019, 12:22:55 PM »
It requires no imagination.  Remember this from 2 weeks ago?

Except there is no standard for impeachment. There's never been...No whistleblower, No lawyers present for hearings....no rush to get it to the Senate.

Don't worry. I'll give you a pat on the back when Emperor Pence makes you drown the gays tho.  ;D

Offline Yosho

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Re: Impeachment
« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2019, 02:00:29 AM »
Has Trump even been impeached yet?


Offline Baiter

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Re: Impeachment
« Reply #23 on: January 01, 2020, 04:13:23 PM »
Has Trump even been impeached yet?

Keep this one fact in mind:  No U.S. President in history has ever been removed from office due to the impeachment, so what's the rush?

That's all the Senate trial is for, but since we know that won't happen it doesn't matter when.  McConnell has already stated there will be no witnesses as the "trial" will be directed by the White House, which is anti constitutional, but alas...

The only reason the GOP wants it pushed through quickly is so that they can avoid any further evidence showing up... which has already happened since the House vote.  In this hyper partisan environment there's going to be continued gridlock in our government for years, if not decades to come.  Happy 2020!
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Offline Don Panetta aka 404

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Re: Impeachment
« Reply #24 on: January 01, 2020, 06:19:43 PM »
Has Trump even been impeached yet?


This is really dumb IMO. No checkmate there at all. It's just silly semantics.

Offline Yosho

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Re: Impeachment
« Reply #25 on: January 01, 2020, 07:00:37 PM »
Keep this one fact in mind:  No U.S. President in history has ever been removed from office due to the impeachment, so what's the rush?

That's all the Senate trial is for, but since we know that won't happen it doesn't matter when.  McConnell has already stated there will be no witnesses as the "trial" will be directed by the White House, which is anti constitutional, but alas...

The only reason the GOP wants it pushed through quickly is so that they can avoid any further evidence showing up... which has already happened since the House vote.  In this hyper partisan environment there's going to be continued gridlock in our government for years, if not decades to come.  Happy 2020!

I'm glad we agree... I'm not sure why the Democrats in the house rushed either?  They could have let the courts play out instead of abusing their powers.  They could have allowed the President to have legal representation. They could have done a real investigation into US involvement in Ukraine corruption regardless of where the facts may have taken them. They could have allowed the Republicans to call witnesses.  No, instead they rushed this through two committees because the outcome was preordained and according to top Dems, it was too important to wait - Trump had to be stopped. 

This is going to continue to hurt the Democrats the longer it's viewed as a partisan attack.  I'd be surprised if the Democrats retain the House majority next election. This may play well with the base who hate Trump, but for the rest of the voters, it's not helpful to their cause.  Democrats need to provide a vision of why they should be trusted with power and how they'll do a better job than the Republicans in improving the lives of working Americans. Claiming the economy is bad, taxes will go up if we're elected, and we hate Trump is not a winning message. 

Offline Baiter

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Re: Impeachment
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2020, 02:12:58 AM »
Democrats need to provide a vision of why they should be trusted with power and how they'll do a better job than the Republicans in improving the lives of working Americans. Claiming the economy is bad, taxes will go up if we're elected, and we hate Trump is not a winning message.

Then it boils down to lies as necessary for an election, because voters don't like reality.  Wages are still flat for the vast majority of taxpayers, their debt is rising, and the national debt is rising.  How can this be in a booming economy?  The reality is the economy isn't booming... it's just the stock market which favors those that are already wealthy. 

GDP growth has already been adjusted downward for 2020, and all the tax cuts did is increase the national debt.  How does one fix that?  a) increase taxes.  b) decrease spending, or c) ride the coattails of a booming economy (e.g., the Clinton years).  Voters don't want to hear (a), for (b) it can be political suicide if one picks the wrong cuts, and (c) is out of the question.  Good luck to all the candidates in 2020 :)
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Offline Don Panetta aka 404

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Re: Impeachment
« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2020, 03:10:03 PM »
Better luck next time?  :roll:

Offline xenon75

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Re: Impeachment
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2020, 01:07:15 PM »
Then it boils down to lies as necessary for an election, because voters don't like reality.  Wages are still flat for the vast majority of taxpayers, their debt is rising, and the national debt is rising.  How can this be in a booming economy?  The reality is the economy isn't booming... it's just the stock market which favors those that are already wealthy. 

GDP growth has already been adjusted downward for 2020, and all the tax cuts did is increase the national debt.  How does one fix that?  a) increase taxes.  b) decrease spending, or c) ride the coattails of a booming economy (e.g., the Clinton years).  Voters don't want to hear (a), for (b) it can be political suicide if one picks the wrong cuts, and (c) is out of the question.  Good luck to all the candidates in 2020 :)


Looks like the new budget has 4.4 TRILLION in cuts in all the right places.  Looks like you are in store for 5 more years of TDS. 

Also above you mentioned about having witnesses in the Senate or lack thereof, which you claimed was unconstitutional. 

Unfortunately that is 100 incorrect.  The brilliant framers of the Constitution foresaw so many problems we would encounter and made sure power could not be accumulated in total by anyone branch.

Under current rules, the actual impeachment inquiry begins in the Judiciary Committee of the House of Representatives. That Committee holds hearings, takes evidence, and hears testimony of witnesses concerning matters relevant to the inquiry. Typically, there will also be a Minority Counsel who serves the interest of the party not controlling Congress. (which the House prevented this time with their secret basement hearings)

Witnesses are interrogated by the Committee Counsel, the Minority Counsel, and each of the members of the House Judiciary Committee. The Committee formulates Articles of Impeachment which could contain multiple counts. The Committee votes on the Articles of Impeachment and the results of the vote are reported to the House as a whole. The matter is then referred to the whole House which debates the matter and votes on the Articles of Impeachment, which may or may not be changed. If the Articles of Impeachment are approved, the matter is sent to the Senate for trial.

The trial in the Senate is handled by "Managers" from the House of Representatives, with the assistance of attorneys employed for the prosecution of the impeachment case. The Senate sits as a jury. (In the past the Senate has heard judicial impeachments by appointing a subcommittee especially for that purpose, which then reports its findings to the Senate as a whole.) The Senate would then debate the matter, and vote, each individual Senator voting whether to convict the President and remove him from office, or against conviction. If more than two-thirds of the Senators present vote to convict, the President would be removed from office. Thus a Senator who abstained from voting but was present would in effect be voting against conviction. (Article I § 3)


TLDR - the Senate is not responsible for helping to prove the charges brought by the House.  There is no expectation for additional witnesses as the case should have been ironclad when it was voted on and left the house.  If it was not, that is 100% on the House.

Maybe they will get it right next time when they try to impeach the President again, undoubtedly they will as they no nothing else but wasting time and money.

Offline Baiter

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Re: Impeachment
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2020, 12:29:26 AM »
Looks like the new budget has 4.4 TRILLION in cuts in all the right places.  Looks like you are in store for 5 more years of TDS. 

It's just a "GOP talking points" budget that has no chance of approval because it only benefits the top 1% most wealthy, an owner of a corporation, or the military industrial complex.  If you're a member of one of those, you've got your man in the white house, otherwise you're not rooting for your own interests.  Remember that 86% of Federal tax receipts are 86% funded by your paychecks.  If the wealthy and corporations aren't footing the bills, guess who is?  You.

And so many questions...
  • If the economy is as great as Trump says, why is the budget not balanced?  2020 will have $4.6B of outlays and the spending is still $4.7B after these cuts.
  • The budget assumes a 3% GDP increase per year, yet Trump is giving federal workers a 1% pay raise, which indicates he is treating Federal Employee pay is an entitlement.  This is the same behavior Trump exhibits with his own properties.  to the banker: My property is worth 250M!  To the local tax authority: My property is worth 150M! 
  • Why is the military budget increasing by 5% in peace time?  If anything should be cut, it's that $750B expense.  but let's face it, even dropping 100% of military spending, the budget is still not balanced.
  • Trump promised not to touch Medicare up to and including the day this budget was released.  It's a sign.

Cheer on, if it makes you feel better.
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