Macs

[number six]

Pretty funny coming from the guy who had a disco ball and light in his "window case"

Yes and that was a joke, hence the miniature disco ball.

[xenoina]

I know!  I was just teasing you.  I thought it was cute...   Kind of too bad the mini disco ball got smashed.

[Mr. Fuzzy]

Apple Cimema displays are beautiful. The pricing is way off on their gear. (I'd complain about games but I don't game on the pc anymore).

The LCD panels in those are the same as in Dell displays (and others), literally the exact same parts straight from Asia, so you're paying purely for the Apple logo and shiny bezel in that case. Even a lot of Apple people don't buy Apple monitors.

Not totally accurate there, I'm afraid.  Yes, the manufacturer is the same, as is the manufacturing process, but as with CRTs, the units all come out different...but at the plant, each display is tested and then graded, so you have units in the top 5%, 10%, 25%, and just whatever was left lying around. The units are sold according to their percentage rating... Apple Cinema Displays are all purchased from the top 5% of the manufacturers grade, so in fact they are better displays.

Thing is, when Dell, or Gateway, or whatever comes to buy theirs, they buy a cheaper hodge-podge grade...which gives them so many in the top 5%, so many in top 10% and mostly what was left lying around. This is why, whenever I buy a flatpanel screen, either computer or TV, I buy the DISPLAY...that way I know what I'm getting.


-Dan

[Baiter]

Whoooah where are you getting this from? The hardware in their Macs is typically the same stuff you'll find in a Dell that costs about half as much.

Here's the article from a year ago, and a couple quotes:

http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&taxonomyName=macintosh_os&articleId=9023959&taxonomyId=123&intsrc=kc_feat

But first, let me say to all those people who have ever bought a Packard Bell or eMachines PC and believe that great value in a computer means any model that sells for $600 or less: I agree -- Apple doesn't have an answer for you. In fact, I suggest that you skip this article entirely. You're not going to find anything of interest in it.

Bottom line: Assuming that you want a high-end notebook PC designed to work, play and be your everyday machine with style, the MacBook Pro is a surprisingly good value. The models that I compared it with, the Sony and the Dell, had some extras here and there, but they were also more expensive. The key to the perception that Macs are more expensive is that Apple offers very few in-between models.

[Baiter]

One more thing that most people don't think about when choosing a piece of software (operating system, editor, etc).  What you really should be doing is looking for the software to make your life easier.  One that, even with a little effort, simplifies your common tasks.

For example, let's say all you do with your computer is to read email, read The Village message boards, check sports scores, search google, and play a game.  You do this every day, multiple times per day.  The question is: what can you do that will minimize the amount of work to do each task... ideally one click or one command, or less.

How long does it take you to find out if you have new email?  1 click is too much.  How about going to the village BBS? 1 bookmark click to get to new messages is perfect.  Search google?  one command.  Maybe you want to download images off your camera reformat them to a smaller size, remove red-eye, and upload them to flickr.  One command.  Convert your latest WMA downloads to MP3, and load it onto your MP3 player that can't play WMA: one command.

The clincher: What does it take to update your OS and all the installed software to the latest version?  Should also be 1 click or 1 command (and ideally no reboots).   When you can do every one of your common tasks with one command or less, you've found nirvana.

[number six]

Here's the article from a year ago, and a couple quotes:

http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&taxonomyName=macintosh_os&articleId=9023959&taxonomyId=123&intsrc=kc_feat

But first, let me say to all those people who have ever bought a Packard Bell or eMachines PC and believe that great value in a computer means any model that sells for $600 or less: I agree -- Apple doesn't have an answer for you. In fact, I suggest that you skip this article entirely. You're not going to find anything of interest in it.

Hmmmmmm sounds like right off the bat the article is already playing on the Apple 'quality' motif. Let me go look at current prices though, I'm sure if you play with numbers you can get PCs that cost as much if not more than Apples but at no time in recent memory have I seen Apples not be more expensive than their PC counterparts. The gap might be better than it once was, but it's still there. So here's the current situation --

Apple MacBook Pro, 15in Display, 2.4Ghz Core 2 Duo, 200GB HD, 2GB Ram, Nvidia 8600M GT Video, DVD+R Drive $1,999.

Dell Inspiron M1530 15in Display, 2.4Ghz Core 2 Duo, 250GB HD, 2GB Ram, Nvidia 8600M GT Video, DVD+R Drive $1,325.

That's a pretty significant increase for basically the exact same hardware. Is the Apple case better? Probably.. but I'm not sure if its $675 better. I'd also give some points back to Dell for the touchpad as the Macbook Pro touchpad is HORRIBLE. I know they're still apparently unhappy about having two mouse buttons, but seriously. whats up with the uni-brow button? Am I left clicking or right clicking? I dunno..

Anyway, also unlike the Apples Dell is constantly having promotions and sales some of which even astound me as the prices are just rediculous.

The price gets even more wacky if you 'upgrade' to the 2.5Ghz Mac Book Pro with the 17inch Display which retails for $2,799. To spend even $2,000 you'd have to get into the Dell gaming laptops generally speaking and the only way to come close to $2,800 is to get crazy shit like a Blu-Ray Burner or something. Dell has 17in Laptops as low as $1500. Not saying the lower end Dell laptops is quite as nice, but damn an extra $1,200 is a lot of scratch for the same basic setup. At that price level i'm looking at Thinkpads or something long before an Apple, because I know after the Apocalypse that Thinkpad will still be fine.

[Baiter]

Another advantage is that Apple has the thinnest and lightest notebooks.  Everyone else's seem to weigh 20% more for same screen size, which is important to reduce lap strain that I get even with my 5lb notebook. 

Apple was also first to market with a diskless notebook (Air) which is eventually where all others will be in another couple of years when the cost of flash drops enough.   Eliminating all mechanical parts saves saves power, which increases battery life and reliability.  I can't wait until they're all like that.

[number six]

For example, let's say all you do with your computer is to read email, read The Village message boards, check sports scores, search google, and play a game.  You do this every day, multiple times per day.  The question is: what can you do that will minimize the amount of work to do each task... ideally one click or one command, or less.

Well the mac isn't playing the game first off But if you just use your computer for Web surfing and email only then seriously.. why would you need something more than a $400 PC or Laptop? Hell like I said previously a Pentium III can surf the Web with XP just fine and you can get those for free! If your spending $3k to do only those things more power to you, but damn.. that sounds like overkill to me.

[Mr. Fuzzy]

As you said six...what more do you need?

Here's my view...I work on stubborn, annoying, and just plain idiotic problems from computer based electronics all day...I come home, sit in front of my mac, and generally, it works!! And I don't have to worry about allowing this, or tweaking that, or generally dicking with it. For years and years, I was a PC fanatic...Mac Sux!! this that and the other...blah blah blah. Meanwhile, while I'm tweaking, playing with, updating, replacing etc,etc,etc my PC's...my Dad had the same damn Mac computer for 8 years (Mac LC III), and it was generally trouble free!! It still did everything it was supposed to do, and an update in software didn't usually mean he had to change his hardware.

At this very moment I am typing to you guys from an old G4 Titanium Notebook... the specs are : 800mhz, 1gb ram, 32mb ded. video...System 10.4.11  It is running my 24" display just fine, and it handles my 3 500gb external FW drives with no problems...I watch DvD's, Surf the internet at 15mbps (and the laptop handles it) and play World of Warcraft at a good, strong framerate... This laptop is pushing 7 years old!! A 7 year old Dell or Gateway? GARBAGE!! (meaning that's where they are by now)

Now, most PC's have to be either upgraded or replaced every 2 years...so lets look at the retail costs. I dunno about you guys, but when I was doing PC's, upgrading ran me about $300-$400 every couple years, and I was doing it myself, so labor costs were nil.
Lets say you keep a PC for 6 years...

Initial cost: About $600 (moderate level.)
2 upgrades...let's say $300 each. =600
Total spent: $1200

Not bad, really.

Equivalent Mac... $800 (I'm talkin Mac-Mini here with the good package)
The only thing your gonna touch in it is RAM... so $300 over 6 years should keep the curve.

Total spent: $1100

And before anyone says anything about software costs, let me say that System 10.3 - 10.4 lasted through 2 windows releases... and the same hardware that ran 10.1 can run thru 10.4 (I point to my 366mhz ibook tangerine as proof...still running 10.4.7...just a bit on the slow side) (The other fun part about Mac's systems, is that generally, what ran on 10.x will run on 10.5, and you don't have to dick with compatability issues NEARLY as much as between windows systems.


So in short...I do agree, that many of the "Mac People" suck, because they like to feel superior to others...I can't stand most I-phone people myself.

But here is my categories of mac people:

1.) The "In" crowd...screw em...I had respect for Mac back when it was un-hip.

2.) The "college kids" ...another version of the "in crowd" but some of them like Mac's simply because it
doesnt give them near the troubles the PC's do...and with student loans, might as well spend the big bucks.
College kids actually do have a lot at stake, at least the serious ones.

3.) Old People...Old people don't want to screw with a computer...if my 67 year old dad, and his 85 year old best friend
can both understand it, and they aren't tech people...then it's better for them.

4.) Buisness people...Macs started as buisness machines, they were designed with buisnesses in mind, and their ads targeted buisness people... buisness people don't like to dick with machines either...the just want it to work.

5.) guys like me,  that deal with enough tech-crap all day, that they just want a freakin break...and dont really want to think about it.


People who hate Macs:

1.) Gamers...Macs arent made for most games...

2.) Tech-Heads (That don't do it for a living) They like their PC's, because PC's can be tweaked heavily...I'm also convinced that this is why PC's need major repairs quite often.

3.) People who are anti-establishment...since mac is now in, they must hate it, and it must die, so that they can feel superior...again, screw em.

(Not meaning to truly offend anyone, so please ignore, if you no like.)
-Dan

[number six]

Another advantage is that Apple has the thinnest and lightest notebooks.  Everyone else's seem to weigh 20% more for same screen size, which is important to reduce lap strain that I get even with my 5lb notebook. 

Be careful about blanket statements. There are Thinkpads out there that actually weigh less than a Macbook pro with the same sized monitor. Apple maybe more efficient than some, but they definitely don't have the 'light laptop' industry entirely to themselves.

Apple was also first to market with a diskless notebook (Air) which is eventually where all others will be in another couple of years when the cost of flash drops enough.   Eliminating all mechanical parts saves saves power, which increases battery life and reliability.  I can't wait until they're all like that.

There are other laptops out there with Solid State storage, the price is pretty hefty right now. (About an additional $600 for a 64gb drive) but once again it's not like Apple is the only one offering it. Dell has been offering that as an upgrade for awhile, if Apple was first it wasn't by that much.

[number six]

Here's my view...I work on stubborn, annoying, and just plain idiotic problems from computer based electronics all day...I come home, sit in front of my mac, and generally, it works!! And I don't have to worry about allowing this, or tweaking that, or generally dicking with it. For years and years, I was a PC fanatic...Mac Sux!! this that and the other...blah blah blah. Meanwhile, while I'm tweaking, playing with, updating, replacing etc,etc,etc my PC's...my Dad had the same damn Mac computer for 8 years (Mac LC III), and it was generally trouble free!! It still did everything it was supposed to do, and an update in software didn't usually mean he had to change his hardware.

Hahaha, I actually have an LCII i got at a surplus auction for $25. It was kinda neat to mess around with, I think it ran System 6. Don't forget, the "LC" stands for "Low Cost" .. rock on!

At this very moment I am typing to you guys from an old G4 Titanium Notebook... the specs are : 800mhz, 1gb ram, 32mb ded. video...System 10.4.11  It is running my 24" display just fine, and it handles my 3 500gb external FW drives with no problems...I watch DvD's, Surf the internet at 15mbps (and the laptop handles it) and play World of Warcraft at a good, strong framerate... This laptop is pushing 7 years old!! A 7 year old Dell or Gateway? GARBAGE!! (meaning that's where they are by now)

There's nothing wrong with older hardware if it works. However, I wouldn't say an older PC is necessarily garbage. Right now the video card is out on my main system and since I don't have any other PCIe cards I'm using my old P4 right now which is probably pushing 6 years old. It's a 2.0Ghz P4 I normally use as a file server and it's perfectly fine. If all you do is Surf/Email/Maybe some Office at this point anything over say a 1.x Ghz will probably get you by as long as you aren't stupid and don't overload it with shit. That said though I know people that are still using the original Blueberry iMacs as their computer and that's pretty impressive. You could in theory also run a Pentium II (about the equivelent) to surf and such but it would suck pretty bad at this point. However, those days are gone as the new Macs are now on the same intel platform.

Now, most PC's have to be either upgraded or replaced every 2 years...so lets look at the retail costs. I dunno about you guys, but when I was doing PC's, upgrading ran me about $300-$400 every couple years, and I was doing it myself, so labor costs were nil.
Lets say you keep a PC for 6 years...

See that argument already a bit flawed as you don't have to upgrade if you don't want to. In fact if you don't play games your probably fine. The crazy PC upgrade curve isn't what is used to be and a decent P4 will probably still be decent for 'normal use' for quite awhile (as long as you stick with Windows 2000 or XP). I know of plenty of businesses that are still running older P4s (and some P3s even!) that are getting by, Office 2007 and Vista will eventually change that but you can avoid that at home.  Also with Apple now in the same hardware boat your argument would also apply back to the Apples as well.

A few months ago Dell was selling a complete Vostro system shipped to your door for $300. It included a Dual Core CPU, A Decent sized hard drive, optical drive, etc. etc. AND a 17inch LCD. (Analog but still). That's pretty insane. There's no reason to spend crazy money on PCs of any sort anymore and if you got something that works by all means stick with it. If I didn't screw around with video editing and such I wouldn't be looking to upgrade anytime soon either.

[Mr. Fuzzy]

Hahaha, I actually have an LCII i got at a surplus auction for $25. It was kinda neat to mess around with, I think it ran System 6. Don't forget, the "LC" stands for "Low Cost" .. rock on!

Yeah, dad ran his through to system 9.2, and even at the 2 grand he spent on the system, he got the better part of a decade out of the damn thing.

There's nothing wrong with older hardware if it works. However, I wouldn't say an older PC is necessarily garbage. Right now the video card is out on my main system and since I don't have any other PCIe cards I'm using my old P4 right now which is probably pushing 6 years old. It's a 2.0Ghz P4 I normally use as a file server and it's perfectly fine. If all you do is Surf/Email/Maybe some Office at this point anything over say a 1.x Ghz will probably get you by as long as you aren't stupid and don't overload it with shit. That said though I know people that are still using the original Blueberry iMacs as their computer and that's pretty impressive. You could in theory also run a Pentium II (about the equivelent) to surf and such but it would suck pretty bad at this point. However, those days are gone as the new Macs are now on the same intel platform.

Now see...that's completely true, there is nothing wrong with the hardware that ran those computers... P-II's also ran at 800mhz, and they were decent processors...I preferred AMD back in the day, but nothing wrong with intel. Also yes, the new Macs are on the Intel Processor, after IBM shut down the "G" line...and for my money, I like the Intel series.

Now, most PC's have to be either upgraded or replaced every 2 years...so lets look at the retail costs. I dunno about you guys, but when I was doing PC's, upgrading ran me about $300-$400 every couple years, and I was doing it myself, so labor costs were nil.
Lets say you keep a PC for 6 years...

See that argument already a bit flawed as you don't have to upgrade if you don't want to. In fact if you don't play games your probably fine. The crazy PC upgrade curve isn't what is used to be and a decent P4 will probably still be decent for 'normal use' for quite awhile (as long as you stick with Windows 2000 or XP). I know of plenty of businesses that are still running older P4s (and some P3s even!) that are getting by, Office 2007 and Vista will eventually change that but you can avoid that at home.  Also with Apple now in the same hardware boat your argument would also apply back to the Apples as well.

No, your right, you don't have to upgrade if you don't want too...but how many PC people don't want to? It's like a sickness...I know. The entire PC industry is built around Windows, and windows is the demanding beyotch...everyone brags about how their system can do this and that and blah-blah...almost worse than mac people. Thing is...let's take a PC laptop that is the same age as my Titanium... let's give it the same rough specs, and lesse...the software from 2001 would have been, what...Windows 2000/ME? Will it surf the internet, yup...check email...yup...so everything that  my Mac will do? Absolutely, and in it's vacuum sealed world of 2001, it is a great machine in it's little time bubble. The only problem arises when I try to use anything modern with it...If I buy a peripheral or printer? Nope, sorry...the drivers aren't available for Windows ME...and when I ask I get looks from the PC people as if I have grown a second head. New external hard drive? Nope, sorry...there are usb conflicts, and Microsoft never released a patch for it, because they quit supporting Windows ME the second it hit the shelves. What about virus protection for my old PC...nope the virus definitions arent written for that software, because the virus software company has moved on, and is only supporting the modern version of Winblows.

Now there are options...of course you can abandon Windows entirely...but to do that, you have to go Linux...which requires a few extra steps, and in my opinion, is a complete waste of time. Linux people also aren't the greatest neighbors, as they are so smug about being able to beat the system for free, that they completely ignore the fact that their software is inadequate, and in essence, they have "burned the barn down in order to keep the horses from running away."

The fact is, I have a new PC laptop...it is a Gateway 2.8 gz that I got from best buy, in order to run 1 piece of PC software for my theological studies, which isn't made for Mac. I use it for that, and am totally annoyed at vista, nut now that XP will no longer be supported I have no choice but to take it up the tailpipe with vista...I don't ever plan to upgrade it anyway, so it can sit in it's little time bubble.

I don't consider my arguments unfounded, nor do I consider the Macs a pointless waste of money, which seems to be the general consensus here. I respect machines that serve a useful purpose, and as a person who has seen and used PC's for years and years, I still say that Mac is superior to PC in all the ways that matter to me today. Sure, I won't have the fastest machine on the block, but the chances are, it will be more stable than the others, and that is one thing Windows, and bi-proxy PC's has never managed...a truly all around stable OS. That added bit of stability, & security that Apple offers is what I'm paying for...and it's worth every penny.

TANSTAAFL,
-Dan

[number six]

Now see...that's completely true, there is nothing wrong with the hardware that ran those computers... P-II's also ran at 800mhz, and they were decent processors...I preferred AMD back in the day, but nothing wrong with intel. Also yes, the new Macs are on the Intel Processor, after IBM shut down the "G" line...and for my money, I like the Intel series.

800Mhz would more than likely be a P3, but we're splitting hairs here. My laptop is a 800Mhz and for what I have it for it still runs just fine.

No, your right, you don't have to upgrade if you don't want too...but how many PC people don't want to? It's like a sickness...I know. The entire PC industry is built around Windows, and windows is the demanding beyotch...everyone brags about how their system can do this and that and blah-blah...almost worse than mac people. Thing is...let's take a PC laptop that is the same age as my Titanium... let's give it the same rough specs, and lesse...the software from 2001 would have been, what...Windows 2000/ME? Will it surf the internet, yup...check email...yup...so everything that  my Mac will do? Absolutely, and in it's vacuum sealed world of 2001, it is a great machine in it's little time bubble. The only problem arises when I try to use anything modern with it...If I buy a peripheral or printer? Nope, sorry...the drivers aren't available for Windows ME...and when I ask I get looks from the PC people as if I have grown a second head. New external hard drive? Nope, sorry...there are usb conflicts, and Microsoft never released a patch for it, because they quit supporting Windows ME the second it hit the shelves. What about virus protection for my old PC...nope the virus definitions arent written for that software, because the virus software company has moved on, and is only supporting the modern version of Winblows.

Windows ME was on of Microsoft's biggest failures, a stop gap before XP came out it was shit and they knew it. You might be hard pressed to find ME drivers but that's mainly because so few people ever ran ME to begin with. I think it was only really viable for a year or two before it was replaced. A Pentium III will run XP as long as it has a decent amount of memory. If you have a Pentium II you can get 2000 going on it reasonably -- but with P3s pretty much free it's probably upgrade time. Windows XP and 2000 are very much supported and you can typically find drivers for just about anything, they still definitely have XP drivers even for brand new hardware. There is no reason to still have ME on anything.

The fact is, I have a new PC laptop...it is a Gateway 2.8 gz that I got from best buy, in order to run 1 piece of PC software for my theological studies, which isn't made for Mac. I use it for that, and am totally annoyed at vista, nut now that XP will no longer be supported I have no choice but to take it up the tailpipe with vista...I don't ever plan to upgrade it anyway, so it can sit in it's little time bubble.

Vista is a whole nother ball of wax. With Service Pack 1 it's a bit more stable/better but overall it still sucks. I ran Vista on one of my machines for about 4 months before I gave up in disgust. I'm sure eventually I'll have to 'upgrade' but until i'm absolutely forced I'll stick with XP. Right now you can run XP just fine, other than some games and such there's nothing major that requires Vista that I know of. Even newer laptops typically have XP drivers (but admittedly I've seen some that don't).

I don't consider my arguments unfounded, nor do I consider the Macs a pointless waste of money, which seems to be the general consensus here. I respect machines that serve a useful purpose, and as a person who has seen and used PC's for years and years, I still say that Mac is superior to PC in all the ways that matter to me today. Sure, I won't have the fastest machine on the block, but the chances are, it will be more stable than the others, and that is one thing Windows, and bi-proxy PC's has never managed...a truly all around stable OS. That added bit of stability, & security that Apple offers is what I'm paying for...and it's worth every penny.

Well as we kinda hashed out earlier XP is actually pretty stable, I don't have stability problems on any of my XP machines. If the older Macs you have still work, absolutely stick with that. My point is right now the difference between an Apple and a PC is hundreds (if not a thousand) of dollars for basically just a logo. Apple has pretty much become the Bose of the computer world, most of their value is in marketing.

[The Renegade]

Thing is...let's take a PC laptop that is the same age as my Titanium... let's give it the same rough specs, and lesse...the software from 2001 would have been, what...Windows 2000/ME?

Uhmm install XP. I know for a fact that Number Six is currently using an 8 year old laptop that runs XP like a champ. Installing XP isn't very expensive at all, so if you are allowed to upgrade your OS in your Mac example why isn't the PC laptop? All the crap you just complained about is fixed when you make the simple upgrade to XP.

[funky49]

Apple Cimema displays are beautiful. The pricing is way off on their gear. (I'd complain about games but I don't game on the pc anymore).

The LCD panels in those are the same as in Dell displays (and others), literally the exact same parts straight from Asia, so you're paying purely for the Apple logo and shiny bezel in that case. Even a lot of Apple people don't buy Apple monitors.

i was sure they came from the same factory as somebody (like certain display sizes with Sony+Samsung LCD tvs) but wasn't sure who. I just know my friend's Apple Cinema blows away my cheapo brand LCDs