Author Topic: Vista! It's time to rip on Vista!  (Read 7023 times)

Offline The Renegade

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Re: Vista! It's time to rip on Vista!
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2008, 04:40:50 PM »
Hehe.. I won't bring the mac into this, but reading the posts about vista it seems to be mostly about what doesn't work or what doesn't behave correctly or simple processes that arent' simple to get to.. I had the same experience with my gateway laptop with vista.. i couldn't stand it.. that and all the constant damn permission boxes.. holy crap that got on my nerves.   I even got MORE pissed when gateway told me that I simply cannot install XP on the laptop even if I wanted to.

Maybe Gateway didn't want to provide you with the free downgrade disc, but I'm sure you could easily install XP on that laptop. The laptop I'm typing this came with Vista, doesn't have it anymore...

Offline number six

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Re: Vista! It's time to rip on Vista!
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2008, 04:45:36 PM »
Maybe Gateway didn't want to provide you with the free downgrade disc, but I'm sure you could easily install XP on that laptop. The laptop I'm typing this came with Vista, doesn't have it anymore...

If there are drivers for the hardware. I saw a guy once that was going for a job at verizon (XP ONLY!!) and had just bought a laptop with Vista pre-loaded. The laptop was a vista only configuration at the time (this may have changed) and some admittedly quick searching of the respective component manufacturers didn't turn up XP drivers for the various components (it was mostly newer revision stuff) so the guy had to take it back and get something that was XP friendly.

So at least in one case I've seen it happen. Maybe with more effort drivers could be found individually and he could have been OK but it wasn't a company laptop so the time wasn't there to be spent on it (at least not by me)

Offline number six

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Re: Vista! It's time to rip on Vista!
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2008, 04:47:39 PM »
Hehe.. I won't bring the mac into this, but reading the posts about vista it seems to be mostly about what doesn't work or what doesn't behave correctly or simple processes that arent' simple to get to.. I had the same experience with my gateway laptop with vista.. i couldn't stand it.. that and all the constant damn permission boxes.. holy crap that got on my nerves.   I even got MORE pissed when gateway told me that I simply cannot install XP on the laptop even if I wanted to.

Agreed that the interface of Vista is a pain in the ass. It asks you for EVERYTHING and that gets annoying quick. Perhaps its all part of a more comprehensive security package but any OS that by default restricts my ability to write to the C: drive can lick my nuts.

Offline funky49

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Re: Vista! It's time to rip on Vista!
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2008, 05:02:29 PM »
Agreed that the interface of Vista is a pain in the ass. It asks you for EVERYTHING and that gets annoying quick. Perhaps its all part of a more comprehensive security package but any OS that by default restricts my ability to write to the C: drive can lick my nuts.

dood, disabling the UAC was one of the first things I DID!!!! It's a must.
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Offline Baiter

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Re: Vista! It's time to rip on Vista!
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2008, 09:16:25 PM »
Agreed that the interface of Vista is a pain in the ass. It asks you for EVERYTHING and that gets annoying quick. Perhaps its all part of a more comprehensive security package but any OS that by default restricts my ability to write to the C: drive can lick my nuts.

No kidding.  Microsoft has progressively disabled more and more functionality by default with Windows 2003 and 2008 as well.  To avoid anyone claiming it isn't a secure OS they now force users to deal with turning everything back on, disabling annoying dialogs, etc.  You know how much work it is to get IE configured to do proper internet browsing?  It's ridiculous.  ASAP I install Firefox, Agent Ransack (great file search replacement), VLC Media player and Xplorer2 (Windows Explorer replacement) to make Windows useable. 

Let's not get into the 667MB the OS takes up before any apps are executed, which is over 2X the memory requirements of XP and 5x that of Windows 2000, benefiting RAM manufacturers more than users.  My wife's 1G Vista laptop runs like a dog because of that (was forced to take Vista over XP at the time of purchase).
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Offline Baiter

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Re: Vista! It's time to rip on Vista!
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2008, 09:19:21 PM »
I did hear from someone that vista has a cool way to execute programs.  If you've used the new Firefox when you type into the location bar it presents matches based on text you type... not just URLs but based on titles and content of web sites, which is nice (the upcoming version enhances that even more).  Vista does that with programs from the start menu to make up for the difficult to navigate program menu.
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Offline number six

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Re: Vista! It's time to rip on Vista!
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2008, 08:53:08 AM »
Let's not get into the 667MB the OS takes up before any apps are executed, which is over 2X the memory requirements of XP and 5x that of Windows 2000, benefiting RAM manufacturers more than users.  My wife's 1G Vista laptop runs like a dog because of that (was forced to take Vista over XP at the time of purchase).

Windows has always been bloated, at least RAM is getting cheaper.

Offline briefcase

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Re: Vista! It's time to rip on Vista!
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2008, 08:55:17 AM »
No kidding.  Microsoft has progressively disabled more and more functionality by default with Windows 2003 and 2008 as well.  To avoid anyone claiming it isn't a secure OS they now force users to deal with turning everything back on, disabling annoying dialogs, etc.  You know how much work it is to get IE configured to do proper internet browsing?  It's ridiculous.  ASAP I install Firefox, Agent Ransack (great file search replacement), VLC Media player and Xplorer2 (Windows Explorer replacement) to make Windows useable. 

It's obvious that you don't really want to use a Windows Server system as merely a server from what you've posted. I've set up almost one hundred Windows servers, ranging from Windows NT 3.51 to Windows Server 2008, and, as an admin, I think Microsoft's stance on the minimizing the default installation and, thus, the attack surface of the server, has improved greatly over the years.

I remember the days of the Nimda worm and "Code Red" going around and compromising servers that were set up with the defaults and never changed. Because of the ubiquity of Windows in client form, you unfortunately get server "admins" (or power users in an office recruited into setting up a server) who take the easy and fast route, insert the CD, and click "Next" a few dozen times and... viola!... instant server!

When I install Windows servers, I only install those components that are necessary for the particular role that server is to play in the network. In that regard, I see Windows Server 2008 (and, to a lesser extent, Windows Server 2003), as being huge steps forward in making it possible for a real server administrator to set up a server properly without much of the fluff and extraneous services that had been part of Windows Server installs in the past.

As for the web browsing and other components of Windows Server that you mention are locked down by default... it's a server. It's not really meant to do more than minimal web browsing. If I need to download something, I use my workstation and make the files available on the network so that there's a buffer between the server and the nasty-nasty Internet. Where I work, there's even talk about denying registered servers (which, you have to have a server registered in order to publish services through the border firewall) access to browse the Internet at all, thus making it easier to detect and quarantine a compromised server.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2008, 09:09:28 AM by briefcase »
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Offline bjones

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Re: Vista! It's time to rip on Vista!
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2008, 09:18:06 AM »
dood, disabling the UAC was one of the first things I DID!!!! It's a must.

But disabling the 'security' is baad mmmkay :)   That's one thing osX does well, apps run in a sandbox if they are not digitally signed.. one of the bennys of being unix based I guess.

For my gateway i was out of luck.  gateway  had no options and microsoft seemed almost angry when I called them about it.  I looked and looked for drivers to let me downgrade and scoured the internet for suggestions..  I did find some options but the process to do it was so convoluted I just gave up.  Why can't I just install whatever OS I want to?  WTF with the special hardware for no reason other than to prevent me from using XP?

Offline briefcase

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Re: Vista! It's time to rip on Vista!
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2008, 09:50:38 AM »
Why can't I just install whatever OS I want to?  WTF with the special hardware for no reason other than to prevent me from using XP?

Oh... the irony...!

I'm sure the people from Psystar are asking themselves a similar question, just substitute "Mac OS X" for "XP"... (http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=2240)
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Offline Baiter

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Re: Vista! It's time to rip on Vista!
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2008, 02:01:57 PM »
As for the web browsing and other components of Windows Server that you mention are locked down by default... it's a server. It's not really meant to do more than minimal web browsing. If I need to download something, I use my workstation and make the files available on the network so that there's a buffer between the server and the nasty-nasty Internet.

I understand where you are coming from.  However, my experience is that I have to perform gigabyte-size downloads to install software on a Windows server, which requires going to javascript-enabled web sites, and as a result downloading twice is a bit of a pain (workstation then server, especially when workstation-to-server connectivity is much slower than server to internet). 

The thing is, Linux servers run 90% of the internet, and they don't find it necessary to lock down browsers.  They don't find it necessary to have the complex user management that Microsoft has devised over the last decade to improve its security compliance.  All Unix-based systems were designed from the ground up as multi-user systems, whereas Windows was designed as a single-user system, and as a result has taken along a lot of crud as it evolves into a multi-user system... which, by the way, it still isn't.  They still find it necessary to perform file locking, which is simply not necessary.  Why is it still not possible to remote desktop multiple sessions into Windows (well non-server ones)?  Unnecessary constraints due to bad architecture.  They need to start over.
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Offline briefcase

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Re: Vista! It's time to rip on Vista!
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2008, 04:17:00 PM »
The thing is, Linux servers run 90% of the internet, and they don't find it necessary to lock down browsers.  They don't find it necessary to have the complex user management that Microsoft has devised over the last decade to improve its security compliance.  All Unix-based systems were designed from the ground up as multi-user systems, whereas Windows was designed as a single-user system, and as a result has taken along a lot of crud as it evolves into a multi-user system... which, by the way, it still isn't.  They still find it necessary to perform file locking, which is simply not necessary.  Why is it still not possible to remote desktop multiple sessions into Windows (well non-server ones)?  Unnecessary constraints due to bad architecture.  They need to start over.

Unfortunately, whlie Linux servers may run 90% of the Internet, 90+% of the systems users use in their homes and offices every day are running Windows, which makes them an easy target for malware, especially when users just don't know any better than to click on that link or to provide their personal information to http://www.paypal.com.ru/...   In this regard, with reference to my previous statement about amateur admins being drafted into service in their places of employment, Microsoft's decision to cut down the amount of damage that a user can do by browsing the Internet is justified and understandable. Besides, IE restricted mode is easy enough to disable; it's just enabled by default.

Windows XP and Vista will run just fine for a user without administrative privileges; however, the software vendors are just now realizing that they need to write applications that don't require administrative privileges to run. The worst example that I have personal experience with is QuickBooks from Intuit, which required administrative rights (full access to HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT and all subkeys...) in order to run. What makes me laugh are the people who say, "Oh, we're going to pass on Vista and wait for Windows 7 (or whatever the final name of the next version of Windows will be)", which is ludicrous since Windows 7 is just going to be more of the same. The question is do you want to ease into running with regular user (non-admin) rights by going to Vista, or just swallow the pill dry and wait for Windows 7?

As far as Windows being single-user oriented or multi-user oriented... I run a Windows Terminal Services server that dozens of users use every day and I haven't really run into issues. Yes, the workstation version of Windows isn't designed to run as a Terminal Services Server, but, that's understandable as it isn't a server operating system... Windows XP and Vista do, however, support multiple users logged on via Command Prompt, as the Secondary Logon service provides that option, which I've used without any problems in XP or Vista. The programs you invoke as User1 run with User1's security access; the programs you invoke as User2 run with User2's security access.

If anything, for as vaunted as the multi-user capabilities in UNIX are, its group security scheme is a hoary mess, and I'm not even sure if you can do some of the things in UNIX that you can do via the GUI and CLI in Windows XP/Vista/Server 2003/2008 in conjunction with NTFS permissions. Being "multi-user" without much mind to groups is fine if you have a couple of dozen users or if each user only needs to be able to access the same resources, but I have 500+ in my domain, and I can't imagine setting users' permissions for each and every user on each and every resource in my domain...
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Offline Baiter

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Re: Vista! It's time to rip on Vista!
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2008, 05:07:01 PM »
Programs that need to run with administrator rights is something that needs to be fixed in Windows land.  Most admins I've encountered set up everything under administrator, which is the equivalent of giving all your end users access to do anything they want with the box.  Terrible security.  by default most Unix systems make it clear that's not what you're supposed to do.

I won't speak to the group permissions in Windows vs Unix environments because I'm not a sysadmin.  All I know is that Unix groups are simple and I have rarely seen a need to go beyond that.  Later versions of Windows have gone crazy with permissions and active directory servers and such, and I really don't know enough to complain or commend Microsoft for it.  All I know is it's too complex for any non-Windows admin to deal with.
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Offline The Renegade

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Re: Vista! It's time to rip on Vista!
« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2008, 04:50:34 PM »
AD groups aren't complex at all, at least I've never found them to by complex or a challenge in administration.

Of course, that's completely off topic. Vista sucks, AD doesn't.

I'm not a big fan of 2008 server yet, but that's mostly because I saw too much of Vista in it and stopped testing it at that point :P

Offline briefcase

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Re: Vista! It's time to rip on Vista!
« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2008, 05:40:11 PM »
I'm not a big fan of 2008 server yet, but that's mostly because I saw too much of Vista in it and stopped testing it at that point :P

Install Server Core, then.  ;D
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