The Village BBS
Florida Arcade and Pinball Collectors => Technical Questions and Help => Topic started by: ibis on July 03, 2010, 02:59:24 PM
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Got one flakey flipper. Swaped the flipper boards and the problem did not follow. Then swapped the interupter and again, the problem did not follow. I assume the connector wires may be loose and I have inspected it. But before I swap out a new connector, I was wondering if there is anything I may be overlooking on this simple issue.
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First thing I'd do is tell Klassic to get the hell out of your game!
:)
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The game and what "flakey" means may help. ;)
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ST:TNG....flipper studders or doesnt react at all. Weak. All mechanics are fine.
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I'm not an expert but to me it sounds like a coil
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Not sure it's a coil.
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Which of the flippers, Leon? At least for now, check for +50vAC at the coil. Also, check the wiring and gap at the EOS switch.
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Left flipper. Wiring looks like all solder is intact. I will check voltage tomorrow!! Check back then.
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I made a mistake re: checking the power at the coil (bridge rectifier, dee dee dee). You should be checking for +50V dc at the coil. Red lead on either of the outside lugs, black to ground.
Sometimes you get a cold solder joint / broken wire at the coil where the bare winding come off the coil and to the lug. In this case, you would need to replace the coil.
To test the coil itself, turn the game on and leave it in attract mode. Then attach an alligator test lead to ground (metal side rail of game), and momentarily touch the other end of the test lead to the middle lead of the flipper coil. The coil should activate.
Also, check the resistance of the coil with a DMM set to ohms with the game turned off. One of the two outside solder lugs for the flipper coil has both a thick and thin coil winding attached to it. This is the "common" lead. Put one lead of the DMM on the outside common flipper lug (the one with the thin and thick coil windings attached to it). Put the other lead of the DMM on the middle lug. A reading of about 4 ohms should be indicated. This is the high powered side of the coil. Put the leads of the DMM on the two outside lugs of the coil. For fliptronics games, a reading of about 125 ohms should be seen.
If approximately these readings are not seen, the flipper coil is bad. Typically the hold side of the coil goes bad more often that the power side.
Also, just verify the EOS switch is operating correctly in the switch test menu.
Report back.
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OK,
I am getting about 130 DC on both coils(maybe have it on the wrong setting but both flipper coils read the same).
The left coil is reading 133 ohm on one lug and 4 ohm on the other lug.
Also, if I touch the center leg of the left coil, the coil fires rapidly. If I touch the left lug, the coil draws in very slowley. The right coil only fires rapidly if I touch the center lug. Nothing happens if I touch the other outer lugs.
EOS looks good and is gapped nicely; all wires good too.
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If I touch the left lug, the coil draws in very slowley. The right coil only fires rapidly if I touch the center lug. Nothing happens if I touch the other outer lugs.
There goes Leon grounding certain things I didn't tell him to. LOL
You should be getting about 70Vdc on each of the 3 flipper lugs. Do you have a spare flipper coil to test in the game?
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I do not think I have a spare. I will be traveling after tomorrow till Friday. I can order one though and get back the next weekend. Just check back then and I will swap it out and give the results.
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OK, I just hate poking around the Fliptronics board if that's not it. Safe trip, my friend!
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Over at neighbors blowing up stuff and drinking lots of the good stuff!!! I checked my spare parts and I do have a replacement coil. As soon as I get back I will replace it and post here! Thanks for the help so far!!!
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Try the connectors to the various boards, one may have came loose in transit. All the flippers were working perfectly, including the night before it came back to you for at least 1/2 hour of playing, never had any flipper issues whatsoever while it was here...which makes me think something may have come loose.
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Actually, I replaced the flipper boards months ago because of the same reason and it fixed it fine, so in a way, this was a pre-existing issue that hasn't come up for quite some time. But it's rearing it's ugly head so I can't explain it. Not a big deal and yes, I will look at all the connections in the head too just in case. Be back Friday and hope to post Friday night or Saturday.
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From Marvin3m, here are some other things you can check out.
http://www.pinrepair.com/wpc/index2.htm#flip0
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Titus, I read Marvin's site on Sunday and could not find that section. Thanks. I think we are on to it now. Either the EOS is dirty or pitted, or the coil is bad or two chips in the flips board in the head are bad. I will systematically go through this stuff this weekend!
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Okee-dokee.....I replaced suspect flipper with a used one I had from the RS. Nothing changed.
Checked the EOS and they are a little over a year old(forgot I replaced both). All clean and no issues I can see.
Fired the coil in test and it works fine. Also did the "hold" in test and it too worked albeit slowly. Other two right coils do not "hold" at all. Not sure that is how it works.
Reseated all connectors to the fliptronics board. No change.
I am thinking I should swap out the flips board to see if it still occurs. I was reading Marvins that states there are some transistors and diodes that can go bad that cause a weak or flakey flipper. I think my FT and RS are the same so those can be doner canidates.
Thoughts??
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Definitely! I'll look over the schematics later.
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Son has friends over who sporatically are playing the remaining working games. Will swap tomorrow and report back.
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Swapped out fliptonics board...still had the problem. I am befuddled now.
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Swapped coils, flipper opto boards and Fliptronics board and the problem continues...hmmm...
Leon, are your flipper board interruptors plastic? Can you please verify in a switch test that the flipper switch is activating when only when you press the cabinet button? What I'm looking for is to make sure that the interruptors are fully covering the opto when the cabinet button is not pushed in and that when it is pushed, it's clearing the opto completely to operate the switch. If the opto is opening and closing in the switch test when it should be one or the other, that may be the problem. Otgher than that, I'm stumped for the moment.
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I think the coil was wound left handed. That's the problem, you need right handed winds.
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Or bring it back here for a few more months, I think the water kept the coils from overheating.
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Leon, also check pins J1-6 and 7 on the flipper opto board. You should be getting +12V DC from the power driver board (J116-2). I'm guessing that this isn't the problem, though. The 2 flipper opto boards are actually tied together. Power should be flowing to the left first, then over to the right and your problem is the left.
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Did you re-check all those connectors to the mpu also? Maybe something got screwed up when we plugged them back in, bent pin...something stupid? I'm thinking it may be something stupid easy since it WAS working perfect. Not that things can't just suddenly go, esp on THAT game with demons in it... but check the easy stuff.
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OK, so I swapped out the rottendog flipper boards from in the STTNG with the RS ones and they still had an issue. I know I did this before but in test, the box on the DMD flickered just like the flipper was flakey. So I pulled the interupter away from the opto and it would go on and off solid. So I was thinkning that maybe the interupter is the problem. I guess they can get pushed out of alignment. Then I noticed the upper right wasnt working at all but found a broken wire from all the handeling. I decided to replace both connectors just for the hell of it....and now NO flipper is working! All wires are in the right place too. I checked fuses and all are fine. I am going to swap the two boards out tomorrow to see if I burned a transitor or diode on the board. The power was on when I replaced the two connectors and I guess it is possible one of them touched something and shorted something out.
Jeff, I reseated all the connectors.
After I swap the boards out tomorrow, I will repost.
I think the interupters are bent out of shape but not totally sure.
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The interrupters can be troublesome, especially the plastic ones. They warp over time. I had to put washers to act as spacers behind the flipper opto boards in my AFM after I replaced the optos to get them to work properly again due to the interrupters not clearing the optos properly.
Leon, WTF are you doing replacing connectors with the power on? I hope you mean reseating? =/ Either way, it's only 12V going to those boards so, unless you hit 50V somewhere, you probably didn't fry anything. Check pins J1-6 on the left side board with the plug on for +12V DC and for continuity from J1-3 to J905-6 on the Fliptronics (ground).
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I know! I actually didnt even realize the game was on till after I did it!!!!! May have been the second drink I had.
I am going to swap boards tomorrow. Then if that isn't it(which I don't think it is) I will check voltage on the boards on the forementioned connection locations. I will report back!!
FREEKINFRACKINGFREEK!!!!
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I am getting about 4 volts to the flipper boards.
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yeah, im gonna go out on a limb, and say, thats a tad short of how many you need going to the flipper board
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I wonder why I had working right flips, then no working flips at all. Obviously the drop in voltage explains that, but why the drop in voltage? I wonder if a diode or transistor is going bad but that would not make sense since I swapped a fliptronics board with the Road Show and it still didn't work.
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You had working right flips because it was the interrupter causing the problem on the left side.
Your explanations of what you've done need to be a little clearer. Obviously you have 4 volts at the flipper opto boards but did you try the other Fliptronics in the machine again today after measuring the 4 volts or just from trying it yesterday?
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Correct. I swapped the boards yesturday with no change so I agree we both feel it was the interupter. Then, I knocked off a wire on the right side. I changed connectors on both sides just to rule anything out. The connectors are wired correctly but now I got no flippers at all. I am going to thripple check the wires on the new connectors again just for safetly sake. Be back in a minute.
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Just rechecked and all the wires appear to be correct. I wonder if I am not getting good contact from the new connectors? Still would not explain the low voltage going to them. I attempted to get a reading in test mode but the flippers are still not being recognized.
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how about we put our machines to gether and have a nice fire? lol I just lost all insert lights and one slot reel on my who dunnit I just spent $150 on it the last time it broke
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The pins and connectors should be .1", not the larger .156".
I verified that the +12V DC going to the flipper opto board comes from J116-2 on the power driver board. You should be getting +12V DC from the power driver board (J116-2). Truthfully, you may have it plugged at J116, J117 or J118. They're all tied together and should all register +12V DC at pin 2. LED 7 should be lit (upper left side of the power driver board) and also measure for 12V DC at TP1 just below LED 7. If you don't have 12V, the problem probably lies with C30 or BR5. I'd replace them both if suspect.
Also, if you have +12V DC at one or two of these locations, J116-2, J117-2 and J118-2, but not all, it's a cold solder joint on the driver board. You should have continuity between all three of those pins. If you don't, reflow some solder.
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well, when you give up Leon, i will be happy to come pick it up , and rid you of your troubles :o)
By "low" voltage, what are you measuring?
AC / DC ? between what and what?
you should have 50v AC between J901-1/2 and J901-3/5
you should have 5v DC between J904-1 and J904-4/5
you should have 12v DC between J904-2 and J904-4/5
if you don't you need to move up, and check the power at the power driver board.
and if not there, slowly work your way backwards.
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how about we put our machines to gether and have a nice fire? lol I just lost all insert lights and one slot reel on my who dunnit I just spent $150 on it the last time it broke
I don't want to get this thread hijacked so as not to confuse anyone, but will tell you where to look. Any further questions should be posted in a new thread. Check fuse F114. Verify LED6 is lit and that you have +18V DC at TP8 (test point 8 ). Also, reseat the short ribbon connector between the CPU and the driver board if the fuse is good.
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how about we put our machines to gether and have a nice fire? lol I just lost all insert lights and one slot reel on my who dunnit I just spent $150 on it the last time it broke
I don't want to get this thread hijacked so as not to confuse anyone, but will tell you where to look. Any further questions should be posted in a new thread. Check fuse F114. Verify LED6 is lit and that you have +18V DC at TP8 (test point 8 ). Also, reseat the short ribbon connector between the CPU and the driver board if the fuse is good.
helpful information given in this thread so far. just posting my appreciation for the members here. :)
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how about we put our machines to gether and have a nice fire? lol I just lost all insert lights and one slot reel on my who dunnit I just spent $150 on it the last time it broke
I don't want to get this thread hijacked so as not to confuse anyone, but will tell you where to look. Any further questions should be posted in a new thread. Check fuse F114. Verify LED6 is lit and that you have +18V DC at TP8 (test point 8 ). Also, reseat the short ribbon connector between the CPU and the driver board if the fuse is good.
understood
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Ummm.... did you change the bridge rectifiers, as we ALREADY knew those needed to be done? Maybe that's causing this issue also, if it's a power problem.
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Long story short, I found a ground wire with a crushed pin. This was causing the bad/no voltage to the flipper boards. In the end, I spaced the interupter to clear the opto and it works like a champ, no more flakey flippers! Huge thanks for Dave! He knows his shit! Drinks are on me!!!!!
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That's great, glad you got it going. See, simple! It sounds pretty easy to find 1 bad wire...:)
How was the pin "crushed"? Was it in a connector?
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You're welcome, Leon and Chris. Thanks for the props!
Once Leon told me what is was doing in the switch test, I knew what the problem was. It was exasperated by Leon changing the connectors without finding and fixing the actual problem first. It turned out to be something I posted to check in Post #28 that Leon couldn't check with his current meter because it doesn't have the ability to check continuity. What really threw me for a loop was what the coils were doing when Leon was testing them. ???
Important things to remember: you need a decent DMM (autoranging a plus) with the ability to test continuity (this would have made Leon's job a lot easier); if you're testing power coming out from a board, pull the connector and test the pins; if you're testing power going into the board, test at the connector; plastic flipper opto interrupters suck; don't start changing things before you find and fix the problem (this is why you should fix any problems prior to pulling apart and shopping a new game) and, lastly and most importantly, Jeff doesn't know WTF he's talking about when it comes to repairing pinball machines. LOL!
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tru dat!
also, if you measure "low" voltage, tell everyone what you measured! and where!
for all i know he had low voltage at the wall outlet :roll:
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It was my fault. I replaced the connectors from the scissor type to crimped Trifuricons. They are .1 pins and are very small. If your not careful you will pinch the part that makes contact with the pin on the board. These voltage issues popped up after I replaced the connectors so I looked into the head of the connectors and you can see the metal flexible part inside the housing. Well one of them was not visable so I took it out and saw confirmed it was crushed. Replaced it and all fired up!!
With the help from Dave, we were testing voltages on the driver board and something was not adding up. I needed to check continuity but my one meter I use for that broke a few months back and I never replaced it. We left the phone conversation with me buying a new one tomorrow and getting back to him with what I found concerning the continuity. So I as sat there I kept thinking something was up with the connectors. I wiggled them, pulled them off and on, etc. But nothing changed. Thats when I looked into the housing.
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and, lastly and most importantly, Jeff doesn't know WTF he's talking about when it comes to repairing pinball machines. LOL!
WTF? Yeah, blame me...it's all MY fault the connector pin was crushed! I didn't think my suggestions were totally outrageous though...
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Ummm.... did you change the bridge rectifiers, as we ALREADY knew those needed to be done? Maybe that's causing this issue also, if it's a power problem.
Whatever you say, Jeff. ;)
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Hey, sorry there, Mr. Super Tech....the BR's DO need to be changed as Leon knows with the resetting problems, I was just trying to offer something maybe you guys hadn't thought about. The game was working perfect the day before over here, so obviously it wasn't something easy or stupid like I was thinking, like a bad connector or crushed pin or something.
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i think it needed new dilithium crystals, and data was to busy playing in the holodeck with Geordi La Forge to fix it, allowing the borge to take over troy's brain.
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Hey, sorry there, Mr. Super Tech....the BR's DO need to be changed as Leon knows with the resetting problems, I was just trying to offer something maybe you guys hadn't thought about. The game was working perfect the day before over here, so obviously it wasn't something easy or stupid like I was thinking, like a bad connector or crushed pin or something.
This issue was not new, it just went away for a while and played for a year without rearing it's head. It is not a big deal and there is no blame for anyoine. Two washers fixed the flakey flipper. The other stuff was because I broke a wire and then crushed a pin. Completely seperate from the original issue. I plaed a few games tonight and it feels great to have it working. I love this pin and see it as a keeper for a long time!
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Hey, sorry there, Mr. Super Tech....the BR's DO need to be changed as Leon knows with the resetting problems, I was just trying to offer something maybe you guys hadn't thought about. The game was working perfect the day before over here, so obviously it wasn't something easy or stupid like I was thinking, like a bad connector or crushed pin or something.
Jeff, the reason I said that is because the BRs regarding the resetting issue and the BR related to the 12V at the flipper opto board are unrelated. Lighten up, Francis. ;D
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Well, you could have just said THAT. I'd rather have more ideas thrown around than less when trying to find a problem, especially since there wasn't any progress at the time. The BR's are on the power board, when Leon mentioned he wasn't getting correct voltages I was throwing that out there since they currently need to be replaced anyway, and thought it COULD be related. I was just trying to help, if my suggestions were WAY out of line, jeez....well, glad Leon got the game going again.