Author Topic: 1/2 power flipper issue...ANNOYING!!! williams space station.  (Read 195 times)

Offline k7

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1/2 power flipper issue...ANNOYING!!! williams space station.
« on: November 23, 2022, 05:11:23 PM »
so this game was fixed, and shipped out to hell, illinois, where there isn't a single tech. SERIOUSLY.
within 2 hours. and the ones i spoke with don't want to make the drive (and i really don't blame them.)

the right flipper fires like it's getting 20 volts...like it's an active hold circuit. ALL THE TIME.

https://youtube.com/shorts/L1ZwLJQkboQ


what the hell do i check next?
  • new coil.
  • new EOS switch.
  • bypassed the EOS switch.

same results.

mind you...the guy is doing what i tell him to do. so he could be screwing in a lightbulb for all i know.

the other flipper works fine.
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Offline Wisefwumyogwave

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Re: 1/2 power flipper issue...ANNOYING!!! williams space station.
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2022, 05:34:35 PM »
The power directly moves thru the cabinet switches in this era, you could try having him jump the lugs on the cab switch(flipper buttons) to see if there is a nice pop
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Re: 1/2 power flipper issue...ANNOYING!!! williams space station.
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2022, 05:36:50 PM »
Also, can't tell from the vid. But if that coil is last in the daisy chain tell him to look at connection on a power lug up the way on the coil chain
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Offline k7

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Re: 1/2 power flipper issue...ANNOYING!!! williams space station.
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2022, 08:30:57 PM »
Also, can't tell from the vid. But if that coil is last in the daisy chain tell him to look at connection on a power lug up the way on the coil chain

he's not techy enough to do that.

but what cause would feed consistent 1/2 power to a coil downstream?

if it ends up being a cabinet switch, i am going out to tip over a cow tonight :P

the cabinet switch always "works", but looks like crud to be totally honest. i think i had him jump it,
but i'll have him do that again tomorrow. this, in theory, makes logical sense. :)
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Offline FUNWIZ

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Re: 1/2 power flipper issue...ANNOYING!!! williams space station.
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2022, 09:41:55 PM »
It looks to me as if the EOS is open and it needs to be moved more to the left so when the flipper flips it opens the EOS. When he flips the flipper you don’t even see it move. As slow as it’s moving it tells me that the switch is open and it’s trying to open an open switch. Have him move the contact blade to the left where you can visibly see that opening the switch more and it will charge the capacitor and it will pop the coil like it’s supposed to. I hope you understand what I’m trying to tell you…
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Re: 1/2 power flipper issue...ANNOYING!!! williams space station.
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2022, 10:20:40 PM »
It looks to me as if the EOS is open and it needs to be moved more to the left so when the flipper flips it opens the EOS. When he flips the flipper you don’t even see it move. As slow as it’s moving it tells me that the switch is open and it’s trying to open an open switch. Have him move the contact blade to the left where you can visibly see that opening the switch more and it will charge the capacitor and it will pop the coil like it’s supposed to. I hope you understand what I’m trying to tell you…

Based on what K7 has already posted he has jumped the EOS switch......
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Offline FUNWIZ

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Re: 1/2 power flipper issue...ANNOYING!!! williams space station.
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2022, 10:40:52 PM »
A novice attempting to jump the EOS contacts, which are the big ones on the inside of the coil. He probably jumped the lane change blades on the outside, or he got one of each and not the proper blades. Proper procedure is to jump the banded diodes directly on the coil, which is the center coil lug, and then to the outside right which should be the banded diode.

If that doesn’t make the coil fire properly, then it is possible the coil is defective and one of the larger windings that attach to those two lugs have worked loose or broken.  Just remember keeping full power on a jumped coil for more than 10 seconds will damage it. It should be pressed and released when jumpered, just a test to make sure it’s getting full power, quickly pressed and released, and not held on for long periods of time.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2022, 10:48:12 PM by FUNWIZ »
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Offline Wisefwumyogwave

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Re: 1/2 power flipper issue...ANNOYING!!! williams space station.
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2022, 11:35:34 PM »
A novice attempting to jump the EOS contacts, which are the big ones on the inside of the coil. He probably jumped the lane change blades on the outside, or he got one of each and not the proper blades. Proper procedure is to jump the banded diodes directly on the coil, which is the center coil lug, and then to the outside right which should be the banded diode.

If that doesn’t make the coil fire properly, then it is possible the coil is defective and one of the larger windings that attach to those two lugs have worked loose or broken.  Just remember keeping full power on a jumped coil for more than 10 seconds will damage it. It should be pressed and released when jumpered, just a test to make sure it’s getting full power, quickly pressed and released, and not held on for long periods of time.
The point of this thread is to provide k7 with more info to feed the novice buyer. All of these little senarios are for not. My suggestion of attacking the flipper cabinet switch next is the next logical step based on info provided. If he indeed jumped a switch matrix lug to a Eos-coil lug there would for sure be other issues here.

Based on the era of the game this is a simple resistance issue, nothing more.
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Re: 1/2 power flipper issue...ANNOYING!!! williams space station.
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2022, 11:13:40 AM »
correction to original post. it's the Left Flipper...and thanks, guys. anything helps...lol.

It looks to me as if the EOS is open and it needs to be moved more to the left so when the flipper flips it opens the EOS. When he flips the flipper you don’t even see it move. As slow as it’s moving it tells me that the switch is open and it’s trying to open an open switch. Have him move the contact blade to the left where you can visibly see that opening the switch more and it will charge the capacitor and it will pop the coil like it’s supposed to. I hope you understand what I’m trying to tell you…

it's 100% closed. i have a few pics verifying that.

so, it's been the same issue since he received it. he sent me videos and pictures, although they suck...i think it's compression via text
from whatever he uses to my iPhone. anyway, he jumped the EOS correctly, from what i can see. of course, i'm not there.

i sent him a new coil, he installed, diodes all matched up (per him, not verified by me), same issue.

then he messed around with the right coil, which is just damm confusing to me, please just work on the issue by itself...lol.

next, sent him a new EOS (actually, i sent the lane change switch, the EOS switch, and a new cabinet switch).
EOS installed, looks correct from the fuzzy Jpeg sent, same exact damm problem.

right flipper is 100%.

had him cut that dumb capacitor, no change.

had him jump contacts on cabinet switch, no change.

sure, it MIGHT be a bad brand new coil. in which case, i'm going to fly to pinball life and slap a bitch. >:(

is there something on the board that would deliver consistant 1/2 power to only 1 flipper? i highly doubt it...

it was 100% here, then got some STI magic, and now this issue. this is the stupidest tech call i've
encountered (i deal with 2 to 10 a week), and the guy lives in a pinball wasteland.

even on painside, my thread is crickets...just adding to my hate of early Williams alpha-numeric games. :(
« Last Edit: November 24, 2022, 11:15:24 AM by k7 »
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Re: 1/2 power flipper issue...ANNOYING!!! williams space station.
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2022, 11:20:20 AM »
Happy Thanksgiving guys K7 do you think the flipper bat shaft is too tight to the bushing?
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Re: 1/2 power flipper issue...ANNOYING!!! williams space station.
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2022, 11:22:09 AM »
Have him jump the ground lugs between both flipper coils and see if the left cabinet switch flips the right flipper with strength
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Re: 1/2 power flipper issue...ANNOYING!!! williams space station.
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2022, 11:31:15 AM »
if i have him jump the ground lugs, it won't blow anything up? as in, he hits the right cabinet button, and both will fire... ;D

oh, he can move it manually without resistance. that was day one stuff...lol. :)

also, if you watch the video, it struggles to go up with power,
and flys right back to base, just with the return springs action.

i'm thinking it's got nothing to do with drag...
« Last Edit: November 24, 2022, 11:35:08 AM by k7 »
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Re: 1/2 power flipper issue...ANNOYING!!! williams space station.
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2022, 11:31:46 AM »
the ultimate guide has NOTHING for me...FML :)

3h. When things don't work: Problems with Flippers
Flippers connect the player to the pinball game. Having perfectly working flippers is extremely important. Here are some common flipper problems and answers.
Remember, all flippers (regardless of the game) will have EOS (end of stroke) switches. This tells the game a flipper is at full extension, and to turn off the flipper high power. If this switch is broken, it will cause problems. Bad EOS switches should always be fixed.

Also all system 11 games will have diodes attached at the flipper coil. Make sure these diodes are oriented like the ones pictured below.

How Flippers Work.
Flipper coils are actually two coils in one package. The "high power" side is a few turns of thick gauge wire. This provides low resistance, and therefore high power. The "low power", high resistance side is many turns of much thinner wire. This side of the coil is important if the player holds the cabinet switch in, keeping the flipper coil energized. The high power low resistance side of the coil is only active when the flipper is at rest. But when the flipper is energized and at full extension, the low powered side of the flipper coil is used so the coil doesn't get hot and burn.

Flippers worked differently on games High Speed to Millionaire. These games used a series wound FL23/600-30/2600 flipper coil. The common lug (where both the low and high powered coil wires were connected together) on these flipper coils was the middle of the three lugs. Also these coils used ONE diode across the two outside lugs. The EOS switch on these games, when opened, enabled BOTH the high power and low powered coils together. This style of flipper coil did NOT use a 2.2 mfd anti-spark EOS capacitor. The problem with this series wound coil was the "back spike" of current that occured when the EOS switch was opened. This cause the EOS switch to excessively wear and pit.

With the introduction of F-14 Tomcat, Williams changed to the parallel wound FL11630 style flipper coil. This coil now used an outside lug as the common lug (where both the low and high powered coil wires were connected together). Also TWO diodes were used and required on these flipper coils. This parallel wound coil eliminated the "back spike" of current when the EOS switch opened. It also allowed the use of a 2.2 mfd 250 volt capacitor to further limit EOS switch sparking and pitting. Now when the EOS switch opens, this removed the high powered side of the coil from the circuit. The low powered side of the flipper coil is always in the circuit, but is essentially ignored when the high powered side is in the circuit. This happens because the current takes the easiest path to ground (the low resistance, high power side of the coil). The low power high resistance side of the flipper coil won't get hot if the player holds the flipper button in.

The CPU Board Flipper Relay K1.
The flippers are only enabled during game play and in diagnostic mode. The flipper enable relay is what turns the ground off and on connected to the flipper coils. The flipper enable relay is located on the CPU board at K1. When you enter diagnostic mode, you should hear the flipper relay K1 click on (activating the flipper buttons). This relay is a 4P, 40 ohm, 6 volt relay. It connects through transistor Q67 (2N4401) and a 7402 at U50 and a 7406 at U56, and ultimately the 6821 PIA at U10. If any of these components are bad, the relay may not activate the flippers. First test transistor Q67, as this fails the most often.

Left: The coil diodes on a FL11630 flipper coil, as used on F-14 Tomcat and later games. Note the solo center blue wire and the blue wire on the right lug goes to the EOS switch. The left lug (or gray/yellow) is the "hot" wire. The second blue/violet wire on the right lug continues to the cabinet switch and ultimately ground. Notice the orientation of the diode bands.
Right: The diode on a series wound FL23/600-30/2600 flipper coil. Notice the two wire on the right lug. These are the power wires. There are two because the power "daisy chains" to the next coil down the line. These power wires connect to the BAND side of the diode. The EOS switch connects to the far left lug (the ground connection), and the middle lug. The far left lug is the "thick coil winding wire" lug.
 

If the flipper(s) don't work at all...
Check the flipper fuses. There is one fuse for each flipper.
Clean the flipper cabinet switch contacts and the EOS switch contacts with a small metal file. Make sure this normally closed EOS switch is adjusted properely with a 1/8" gap at full flipper extention.
Check for +50 volts at the flipper coil. Put your DMM on DC voltage. Put the black lead on ground (metal side rail of game). Put the red lead on any of the three lugs of the coil. You should get between 50 and 80 volts. No voltage means a fuse is blown, or a wire has broken.
Test the coil itself. To do this, turn your game on and leave it in attract mode. Attach your alligator test lead to ground (metal side rail of game), and momentarily touch the other end of the test lead to the middle lead of the flipper coil (on F-14 Tomcat and later games). The coil should activate.
You can also check the flipper coil with your DMM set to ohms. With the game turned off, try this:
Notice the three solder lugs for the flipper coil. On FL11630 flipper coils, as used on F-14 Tomcat and later games, one of the outside lugs has both a thick and thin coil winding attached to it. On games High Speed to Millionaire using a FL23/600-30/2600 coil, the center lug has both the thick and thin wires connecting to it. This is the "common" lead.
Put one lead of your DMM on the common flipper lug (the one with the thick and thin coil winding attached to it).
Put the other lead of your DMM on the thick wire lug. You should get a little more than 4 ohms. This is the high powered side of the coil.
Put the leads of your DMM on the thin wire lug of the coil. You'll get a litle more than 4 ohms until you move the flipper manually to the full extended position, opening the EOS switch. Now you'll get about 160 ohms. Note if you get more than about 5 ohms when the flipper is at rest in this test, your EOS switch is pitted and causing some resistance. Clean it for stronger flippers.
If you don't get approximately these readings, the flipper coil is bad. Typically the hold side of the coil goes bad more often that the power side.
Test the flipper diode(s). To do this you'll have to cut one lead of each diode off the coil lug. Then set your DMM to the diode setting. Put the black lead of your DMM on the banded side of the diode. You should get .4 to .6 volts. Reverse the leads and you should get no reading. When done, re-attach each diode lead. Note games using flipper coil FL23/600-30/2600 only have one coil diode. Games F-14 Tomcat and later use a FL11630 flipper coil and have two diodes.
The CPU board flipper relay K1 is not engaging. If the relay that turns the ground on to the flippers (when a game starts) has failed, the flippers will never work. Replace this relay or examine the logic that controls this relay. This is a 4P, 40 ohm, 6 volt relay. It connects through transistor Q67 (2N4401) and a 7402 at U50 and a 7406 at U56, and ultimately the 6821 PIA at U10. If any of these components are bad, the relay may not activate the flippers. First test transistor Q67, as this fails the most often.
If the flipper works, but...

When activated, doesn't hold up (the flipper "flutters"). This means the hold winding on the coil itself is broken. The hold winding on the coil is the thin wire. If it is broken, you can usually see the wire has broken away from one of the solder lugs (the middle lug should have both the thick and thin wire attached to it). Test the coil first (see above) before replacing the transistor.
Flipper seems to work fine, but gets very hot and eventually starts to burn and smell. Often the flipper will get stuck in the "up" position. The EOS switch contacts are not opening when the flipper is fully extended. Or the EOS switch capacitor has shorted on.
If one or both flippers are weak...

Rebuild the flippers. Play and wear in the flipper parts is the primary reason for weak flippers. A mushroomed flipper plunger dragging against the coil sleeve is a classic cause of weak flippers.
Make sure there is about 1/16" up and down play on the flipper. To test this, from the top of the playfield, grap the plastic flipper and pull up. There should be some play. If not, the flipper could be binding on the nylon playfield insert. This gap is adjustable from under the playfield by changing the flipper pawl's grip on the flipper shaft.
Clean the EOS switch contacts and the cabinet flipper switches. These are high-voltage tungsten switch contacts, and you'll need a metal file to clean them. These switch contacts often become pitted and tarnished, and resistance develops.
Check the fuses. The right and left flipper fuses could be Ok, but if another 50 volt fuse is blown, that could make the flippers weak (this will effect both flipper equally). For example, on games with an Auxiliary power driver board (Big Guns and later), if fuse F7 is blown, both flippers will be very weak, but will still operate.
Check the bridge and capacitor that supplies voltage for the flipper coils. An open diode in the bridge rectifier that supplies power to the flippers can cause weak flippers. A fatigued or cracked solder joint on this bridge (or its associated capacitor) can do that too. This is rare, but does happen. This problem will affect BOTH flippers equally. See the section, Testing Bridge Rectifiers for more information.
Flipper coil gets very hot...

Check the EOS switch to make sure it is adjusted properely (1/8" gap at full flipper extension), and that the contacts are clean and filed. If the coil is getting hot, this means the EOS switch is not opening.
A flipper gets stuck in the up position...
Check the EOS switches and the flipper pawl. Often the rubber coating on the flipper pawl that contacts the EOS switch will wear. This causes the flipper pawl to hang up on the end of the EOS switch. The end of the EOS switch can even get torn and fray from this. See "Rebuilding Flippers" for information on fixing this.
Flipper is too tight inside the playfield flipper bushing. This causes binding between the playfield bushing and the flipper crank assembly. There should be about a 1/32" gap. If the flipper paddle doesn't have any vertical movement, it's too tight. Use the flipper adjustment tool included with the game to fix this (see rebuilding flippers for more info).
Check the flipper return spring. Is it broken or missing?
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Offline Wisefwumyogwave

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Re: 1/2 power flipper issue...ANNOYING!!! williams space station.
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2022, 11:48:13 AM »
Wont blow anything, it'll just have a good spark on the cab switch

F5 and f6 are the flipper fuses on AUX driver board, have him check for a loose fuse otherwise, loose plug feeding power J5 on aux driver or loose ground plug (board1 cpu?)J19. These coils are not driven by transistors
« Last Edit: November 24, 2022, 11:50:47 AM by Wisefwumyogwave »
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