Author Topic: Energy policies  (Read 5046 times)

Offline Baiter

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Energy policies
« on: August 15, 2008, 08:41:51 AM »
What does everyone think of our candidate's energy policies?  Glancing at both web sites the differences look something like this:

McCain:
  • Expand Domestic Oil And Natural Gas Exploration And Production
  • Reform Our Transportation Sector (ask auto manufacturers to make more efficient cars, use more flex fuels)
  • Invest in clean energy ($2B for Clean coal, 45 Nuclear power plants, encourage wind/solar/hydro)
  • $300M prize for better battery technology

Obama
  • Provide short-term relief to American families facing pain at the pump
  • Help create five million new jobs by strategically investing $150 billion over the next ten years to catalyze private efforts to build a clean energy future.
  • Within 10 years save more oil than we currently import from the Middle East and Venezuela combined.
  • Put 1 million Plug-In Hybrid cars -- cars that can get up to 150 miles per gallon -- on the road by 2015, cars that we will work to make sure are built here in America.
  • Ensure 10 percent of our electricity comes from renewable sources by 2012, and 25 percent by 2025.
  • Implement an economy-wide cap-and-trade program to reduce greenhouse gas emissions 80 percent by 2050.
WTB: Defender, Embryon

Offline number six

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Re: Energy policies
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2008, 08:58:39 AM »
Obama's Energy policy is constantly in flux, so you have to check back often on that one.

Quote
From July 7th..

I do not believe that we should use the strategic oil reserves at this point. I have said and, in fact, supported a congressional resolution that said that we should suspend putting more oil into the strategic oil reserve, but the strategic oil reserve, I think, has to be reserved for a genuine emergency. You have a situation, let’s say, where there was a major oil facility in Saudi Arabia that was destroyed as a consequence of terrorist acts, and you suddenly had huge amounts of oil taken out of the world market, we wouldn’t just be seeing $4-a-gallon oil. We could see a situation where entire sectors of the country had no oil to function at all. And that’s what the strategic oil reserve has to be for.

But that was 'refined' in August to:

Quote
Democrat Barack Obama called today for tapping the nation’s strategic oil reserves to help drive down gasoline prices, a shift from his previous position on the issue.

Barack Obama recognizes that skyrocketing energy costs are taking a  heavy toll on American families. To address the squeeze on Americans,  Obama is calling for an: emergency energy rebate; an aggressive plan  to crack down on speculators; and a swap of oil from the Strategic  Petroleum Reserve to help provide immediate relief from soaring energy prices.

The reversal is the second refinement in Obama’s energy policy. Last week, he said that he would reluctantly consider accepting some offshore oil drilling. Obama had previously said he opposed such drilling, which is strongly backed by rival John McCain, who has urged that states be allowed to decide whether to drill.

So check back often!

Obviously we need a plan that encourages alternative fuel sources but also acknowledges that the need for Oil isn't going away anytime soon so we need to get our drills in order. Sure, drilling won't produce anything for years.. but since when is an investment that doesn't pay off immediately foolish? Tapping the strategic reserves is just stupid and would only result in a few pennies of savings for a short time (Which Obama pointed out when he was originally against it) so that's not the answer.

I don't like that McCain is onboard with the Global Warming garbage either, but what can you do.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 09:00:20 AM by number six »

Offline Baiter

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Re: Energy policies
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2008, 07:40:24 PM »
By default I don't really like drilling for more oil.  Using less is the long term goal.  Obama has the longer term plan, no question about it.  McCain's drilling helps the short term.  I really don't mind suffering a bit in the short term if I know long term we are better off, but that's just me.  Most Americans are short term, and Obama has a $1000 check to help you pay for gas.
WTB: Defender, Embryon

Offline funky49

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Re: Energy policies
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2008, 08:30:20 PM »
funky49's energy policy:

    * Expand Domestic Oil And Natural Gas Exploration And Production where environmentally responsible.
    * Force change in the 'Idiot Three' (encourage hybrids, plugins and better MPG for gasoline cars)
    * Increase taxes on fuel inefficient new car sales (pretty much just for fun)
    * Invest in clean energy generation to provide electricity for plugin cars. (Clean coal, nuclear, wind/solar/hydro/geothermal)
    * Subsidize private efforts to build a clean energy future
    * Subsidize public transportation where it is smart
    * Encourage higher population density
    * Encourage less consumption of goods
    * Pray the GM Volt kicks ass!
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Offline brewmeister_us

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Re: Energy policies
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2008, 08:52:53 PM »
Most Americans are short term, and Obama has a $1000 check to help you pay for gas.

Are you really that stupid to believe that the oil companies will not pass the increases on to consumers if they are saddled with a windfall profits tax (see below)?  Come on and grow a set!  Get real!

If you get $1k from Capt Socialist (not to be confused with Capt Fantastic, see Arcade forum), you'll just piss away the extra (plus more out of pocket) when the oil companies kick up their prices.  It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to see that...







ST. PETERSBURG, Florida (Reuters) - Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama called on Friday for a package of new measures to fight rising energy costs, including a $1,000 tax rebate for low- and middle-income workers.

Obama, trying to shift the focus of his campaign debate with Republican White House rival John McCain back to the economy, said he would pay for the $65 billion package with his proposed windfall profits tax on oil companies. 
Putting the "fun" in dysfunction every day...

Offline Baiter

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Re: Energy policies
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2008, 11:37:20 PM »
If you get $1k from Capt Socialist (not to be confused with Capt Fantastic, see Arcade forum), you'll just piss away the extra (plus more out of pocket) when the oil companies kick up their prices.

Really?  You're going to call Obama a socialist for giving a $1000 check after Mr Conservative Republican George W. Bush wrote me a check for $1500 this year... for no better reason?   Really?

By the way, I fully agree the oil companies will pass everything onto the consumers, regardless of what the US government tells them to do... and add another 10% just for good measure.  Each year.  Until we all die.  Poor.  Because, frankly, the oil companies are more powerful than any nation in the world.

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Offline number six

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Re: Energy policies
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2008, 08:50:03 AM »
By default I don't really like drilling for more oil.  Using less is the long term goal.  Obama has the longer term plan, no question about it.  McCain's drilling helps the short term.  I really don't mind suffering a bit in the short term if I know long term we are better off, but that's just me.  Most Americans are short term, and Obama has a $1000 check to help you pay for gas.

Eliminating the need for Oil is definitely long term, like probably a generation or two. Even if we cut out Cars you still need a massive amount of Oil for other uses. No doubt getting away from Oil is the plan, but you have to be realistic. There's no magic bullet energy alternative that's going to pop up in the next 5 years that's going to eradicate the need for Oil. So, in the meantime you better have a way to get your own especially with all the problems brewing abroad.

The $1,000 check is nothing more than pandering.. bread and circuses. Plus nothing is free so who do you think will end up paying for that $1,000 to everyone?

Offline number six

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Re: Energy policies
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2008, 08:53:30 AM »
Are you really that stupid to believe that the oil companies will not pass the increases on to consumers if they are saddled with a windfall profits tax (see below)?  Come on and grow a set!  Get real!

If you get $1k from Capt Socialist (not to be confused with Capt Fantastic, see Arcade forum), you'll just piss away the extra (plus more out of pocket) when the oil companies kick up their prices.  It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to see that...

This is true. You can't Tax corporations, well you can but guess what happens? Extra tax equals extras costs so prices rise which 'trickles' down to the consumer. Obamas plan to 'prop up the middle class by larger taxes on corporations' sounds good but isn't going to work because those same corporations will raise prices that mostly middle class americans are paying.

The $1,000 check is simply a popularity grab. What's next, vote for candidate X and get a free widescreen TV? Sad part is, crap like that will probably work in 'buying' votes.

Offline number six

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Re: Energy policies
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2008, 08:57:46 AM »
Really?  You're going to call Obama a socialist for giving a $1000 check after Mr Conservative Republican George W. Bush wrote me a check for $1500 this year... for no better reason?   Really?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUfo-RxkXA8


Offline Mamushka

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Re: Energy policies
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2008, 01:05:04 PM »
What does everyone think of our candidate's energy policies?  Glancing at both web sites the differences look something like this:

McCain:
  • Expand Domestic Oil And Natural Gas Exploration And Production
Sounds good
  • Reform Our Transportation Sector (ask auto manufacturers to make more efficient cars, use more flex fuels)
I think market forces are already doing that
  • Invest in clean energy ($2B for Clean coal, 45 Nuclear power plants, encourage wind/solar/hydro)
2 Bill for clean coal and 45 Nuc plants? That may pay for the landscaping. You also need to understand the concept of "Baseload" power before you look at wind or solar and forget Hydro, where are you going to build more dams?
  • $300M prize for better battery technology
Pointless, cell phone, laptop and tool makers (cordless drills etc) are pushing hard for better batteries now. The company that develops the next great battery will own the market and they know it
[/list]

Obama
  • Provide short-term relief to American families facing pain at the pump
BS, his plan is like car dealers giving you "at least $5K for your trade in!!!
  • Help create five million new jobs by strategically investing $150 billion over the next ten years to catalyze private efforts to build a clean energy future.
Sounds a bit weak on details
  • Within 10 years save more oil than we currently import from the Middle East and Venezuela combined.
See above
  • Put 1 million Plug-In Hybrid cars -- cars that can get up to 150 miles per gallon -- on the road by 2015, cars that we will work to make sure are built here in America.
See above
  • Ensure 10 percent of our electricity comes from renewable sources by 2012, and 25 percent by 2025.
See above
  • Implement an economy-wide cap-and-trade program to reduce greenhouse gas emissions 80 percent by 2050.
So we will have to send 100% of all manufacturing to other countries (China) that could care less about pollution. Great plan to solve "Global" warming, just pollute over there.
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Offline Niloc

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Re: Energy policies
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2008, 01:53:25 PM »
Is there an X-Prize type deal for major innovations in solar power? If not there should be. IMO we should be working on making solar panels more efficiant and at the same time coating every surface of every building with the solar panels we've already got, and setting up large scale solar plants in the deserts of the southwest.

In additon to that more funding for fusion research and build more nuclear (fission) plants. Build 'em out of most people's back yards, there's plenty of room in Nevada, a lot of space out where they tested nukes in the first place.

Most importantly we need to get on this NOW, while we've still got the oil to power the building of the alternate sources of energy.



Offline Baiter

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Re: Energy policies
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2008, 03:26:15 PM »
This is true. You can't Tax corporations, well you can but guess what happens? Extra tax equals extras costs so prices rise which 'trickles' down to the consumer. Obamas plan to 'prop up the middle class by larger taxes on corporations' sounds good but isn't going to work because those same corporations will raise prices that mostly middle class americans are paying.

Flat tax!
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Offline Niloc

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Re: Energy policies
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2008, 12:38:55 PM »
Fucking whiners like this guy need to be bitchslapped;

http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/wayoflife/08/17/bitter.wind.ap/index.html

7 windmills brining his family a MINIMUM of $6600 a year each ($46,200) which they've got to do jack shit for, clean power without the potential hazards of nuclear and he doesn't like the "flickering shadows" they cast at "certain points in the day".

I've seen these things in operation, they're not loud, and you can take a few bucks of that money and soundproof your damn house too.

I need to buy some land where it's windy. $46,000 a year, I'd retire today and that low-pitched "woosh, woosh" noise would be music to my ears.


Offline sirmatt

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Re: Energy policies
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2008, 03:25:21 PM »
I vote heavily fortified nuclear. Now THAT'S energy independance. France is almost 100% independant. I was there last year, it was great. We could power the entirety of our needs, including transportation, for a very low cost. Then shoot the rods to Venus.
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Offline Niloc

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Re: Energy policies
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2008, 02:55:18 PM »
It's an interesting sort of sci-fi though experiment to imagine what the world would be like if power was cheap. Really really cheap, like lets say we came up with a workable form of fusion, and the average electricity bill was say $25/month, but if you left everything you had on all the time, like 24/7, your bill might be $50.

The infrastructure would have to be upgraded, no doubt, because people would be using a lot more power. You could set your air conditioning to 60 degrees or lower and not worry about it, ditto with heat in the winter. Insulation would be a lot less of a concern, heck you could air condition your porch. Efficiancy in appliances and electronics would also be much less of a concern (except in portables). Electric cars would get more development if recharging them was nearly free. Dads everywhere would have to learn to stop yelling "shut the damn refrigerator door!" Probably ton of other unforseen benefits/consequences too - it'd be damn nice to be able to run my computers, X360 & PS3 24/7 and not worry about it, then turn down the AC enough so they don't heat up the house too much.

I read something about a proposal to generate electricity using the earth's orbital momentum a while ago, the upside is that it's a clean and nearly free source of power. The downside is that as soon as we use too much, everybody dies.

« Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 03:06:52 PM by Niloc »