Author Topic: who are the terrorists again?  (Read 3220 times)

Offline mikewags

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who are the terrorists again?
« on: April 05, 2010, 10:22:12 PM »
YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

Disturbing video of coalition forces gunning down 8 unarmed men/journalists, along with some children.

(article)
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=125603749&ft=1&f=1001
(source)
http://wikileaks.org/

Now I know this shit doesn't happen everyday (or at least I assume it doesn't) - but it's still troubling nonetheless.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2010, 09:17:46 PM by mikewags »
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Offline Baiter

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Re: who are the terrorists again?
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2010, 11:18:48 PM »
It's a pretty awful scenario... I understand in the heat of battle it's tough to distinguish who is who, but in this case, there was plenty of time to analyze the situation, and it was completely misread.

In my first viewing I jumped directly to the point right before the attack, and my untrained eye was not convinced that I saw anything more than civilians hanging out by the way they were walking and talking.  I think I saw maybe 1 gun in the and the "RPG" on the corner most certainly did not look like an RPG, nor was it being held nor positioned like it.  The cameras/lenses, slung over two men's shoulders as I later learned, never looked like weapons to me.  Second time around after I knew, it was more obvious.

If there was any question as to the amateur behavior of these soldiers to this point, the attack on the rescue vehicle while picking up the wounded man was just wrong... there was obviously no threat from doing that.  No gun to be seen.  I assume the attack copter had the same camera resolution as we saw (and in fact unlike us they could see in color), so I don't get it.  Yea it's a partial video, but I would hope they receive better training than this before being placed behind a gun.
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Offline Wumpus

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Re: who are the terrorists again?
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2010, 12:21:35 AM »
First off, I have to object to your use of the title. 

Second, this is exactly what you get when you critique events after the fact around an activist context.  If you care to remember, Baghdad in 2007 was an extremely hot zone for insurgent activities ranging from IED attacks, RPG attacks and drive-by shootings.  Rules of Engagement stated (paraphrase) that any person(s) observed carrying weapons are lawful targets.  Two un-uniformed individuals were clearly carrying weapons. At 3:45, you can clearly see the RPG launcher being held by a person on the right, the other is carrying a rifle.  Later you also see a person squatting at the base of a building (for cover?) and peering around the corner with a long object in front of him, possibly lining up a shot.  If you listen to the radio, there is a patrol nearby and the Apache is providing air cover, and they had a report of another shooting.  It can be clearly be perceived to be the kind of threat that the pilots are trained to detect.

Third, the van that appears later to evacuate a body is unmarked, the three individuals picking up the body are also un-uniformed.  It certainly doesn't look like any kind of rescue team I've ever seen.  Also can easily be perceived as a getaway vehicle.

Forth, given all the evidence after the fact, you have to recognize the extraordinarily bad judgment excised by these two Reuters War Correspondents.  The posters use this as another opportunity to condemn the brutality of American Military Forces, and the deaths of these two photographers are indeed tragic.  But who were the people they were with?  The video states that the stories of the other people in the area are unknown, why?  I thought these people wanted to get to the heart of the story?  Might it be because reporters routinely embedded themselves with terrorists? 

Fifth, also in the vein of bad judgment is the van that appears.  Seriously ask yourself, if you witness an active military engagement and you drive you're van to the scene, even if your intentions were good, why the hell would you bring your children?  Seriously.

To reiterate, the deaths of the journalists is sad and tragic as well as the injuries sustained by the two girls in the van.  But Wikileaks frames the situation in an activist context to convey the message that two innocent journalists were just doing their job and were unjustly killed in the line of their duty; which is sad...tragic...and pathetic.  The girls BTW are the only innocent people in this scenario...they were placed in this situation by others through no action on their part.  That is the only tragic part about this.

Offline funky49

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Re: who are the terrorists again?
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2010, 01:05:08 AM »
This happens in war. War is fought with human beings and sometimes they make mistakes. You have to assume they've been trained to identify threats and that day a camera and tripod looked like something sinister. The Reuters guys were incredibly unlucky to be taking photos and to have a crowd join them. In the dialogue, the soldiers were professional in their targeting and firing and only slipped later on. They are probably guys from 18-24 and not robots.

Where our government messed up is hiding their mistakes and lying. They should have been more transparent with this situation and taken their lumps. They also should have treated the injured girl at the military hospital instead of her care being delayed when she was transferred to the Iraqi hospital. I can only assume that firing on the van that appeared was in the 'Rules of Engagement' at the time.

The video is horrible and disturbing... but war isn't meant to be pretty. It's good that people see this because this is real. This is informative. This is reality tv. If it makes people more gung-ho that we should do more regime changing, then okay. If it makes people less comfortable with us using our armed forces, then okay. I feel a lot of people don't really know we're at war. They're not touched by it. They don't feel it until someone they know is over there or until they figure out we've been charging our last few engagements on the country's credit card.
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Re: who are the terrorists again?
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2010, 07:40:12 AM »
forrest gump called, he wants his chocolates back.


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Offline mikewags

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Re: who are the terrorists again?
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2010, 08:42:07 AM »
I think you all bring up good points. Watching this video kind of reminded me of watching Full Metal Jacket. I think when you use military drones, choppers, bombs and missiles - you cut down the risk of danger to our troops, but things like this tend to happen more often. I can probably go through what the media has reported on in terms of "mis-hits" with drones in the past 6 months, and come up with at least 2 or 3 stories of innocent civilians being killed by mistake.

I think what is most disturbing about the video is the human element. It seemed the reason the engagement happened in the first place, was based more on a few soldiers seeking action, rather than the logistical facts of the situation. The rhetoric used by the soldiers is bothersome, but as funky says - they are human after all...what do you expect? In the end, these guys come off as 'high on adrenaline looking for a fight'. That's how I perceived the situation, anyways.

I'm not that convinced that the guys on the ground had weapons or were a direct threat - but I might be wrong. If strolling around carrying firearms necessarily poses a threat; our troops will have a full time job of killing people on the streets.

On a side note, the way our Army goes about killing people has always been pretty autonomous and that is a little scary. Watching the gunner unleash 50 cal rounds onto these people from the safety of the skies was almost like watching a video game.
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Offline mikewags

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Re: who are the terrorists again?
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2010, 11:58:51 AM »
Same story on CNN - unfortunately they don't have the brass to show the full video:

http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/world/2010/04/05/tsr.starr.iraq.video.cnn

Continue shielding the American public from the real shit that happens during War.

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Offline Yosho

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Re: who are the terrorists again?
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2010, 06:26:39 PM »
War is a horrible horrible thing, and unless you have fought in one, I don't think you can truly understand the meaning of those words.  Watching war movies, reading novels, playing FPS, or immersing yourself in media reports such as this can't give you enough perspective to make a sound judgement, let alone second guess the actions of those who have been to war... and yet, that's the responsibility we all have as citizens in our Republic.  A difficult contradiction to have to resolve, so let me give you my perspective before you decide.

This video is now several years old, and as such, I don't think we'll ever know what was really happening on the ground and why this group of men formed up.  To my trained and experienced eye, it's obvious that some of the personnel on the street were armed (I saw 1 rifle and 1 RPG), that there was a US patrol in the vicinity, and at approximately 4:00 min in the video, one person with something dark and tube shaped in his hands is peering around the corner of the building in a kneeling tactical stance (what you would expect a person getting ready for an RPG shot to do).  The pilots call out what he's holding in his hands as an RPG.  In that moment, and in that context, it certainly appears to the pilots that this group of people is setting up for an ambush.  Now, was the guy peering around the corner holding a camera instead of an RPG?  Even to my eyes, it's hard to be sure.  A better question as Wumpus points out is: if that was the photo journalist, what was he doing hanging out with the guys with guns, and why was he peering around the corner of the building, down a street, with a US convoy in the area?  Was it hostile intent or simply poor judgement to do that in a war zone? 

It's perfectly understandable why someone unfamiliar with the insurgency in Iraq/Baghdad around 2007 might watch this video and question why an armed group of people strolling down the street mid day should be attacked.  I would ask you though, what do you think an ambush looked like?  What do you think terrorists and insurgents look like?  That's right, more often than not, they looked something like this.  Indeed, do we know this wasn't an attack that was preempted by the pilots?  The assumption Reuters (and wikileaks) would like you to form is that because their journalists were on the scene, it wasn't an attack.  Really?  Reporters never contact the other side in a conflict?  What was this group of men doing then and why was this journalist taking their photos?  Again, we'll probably never know.  Either way, the reporters were certainly in the wrong place at the wrong time.  As for the van / "rescue vehicle"... that was indeed tragic that the two young girls were inside.  Ask yourself though, what do you think an Al Qaeda/insurgent rescue vehicle looks like?  Do you think it would be marked as such?  Do you think Al Qaeda/insurgents live with their families or live apart from them to keep them safe?  Unfortunately, war is an ugly and horrible thing.  Civilizations developed rules of war to try and limit the danger to noncombatants.  One of the key rules of war was that combatants should wear uniforms to be able to be distinguished from noncombatants.  If you fought and didn't wear a uniform, you could be shot as a spy if captured.  If you fought and did wear the uniform, you'd be afforded certain rights which were eventually codified into the Geneva conventions. Terrorists and insurgents don't follow the rules of war.  They use noncombatants in their society as shields and directly attack noncombatants in our society.

If the dialog of the pilots seems inappropriate or makes you blush as politically incorrect, I don't know what to tell you.  The pilots and gunners are aggressive and they need to be.  In 2007, convoys/patrols/and helicopters are being shot at and ambushed daily.  Their job is literally life and death, both for themselves and the troops they're covering on the ground.  Real life missions don't include a replay button.  Regardless of what actually happened on this day... In their minds at that moment, they just killed the bad guys and saved themselves and the other good guys from harm.  If you still find their dialog inappropriate in that context, do you think you could be more clinical and cold?  Are you willing to do their jobs and do them better?

Finally, I have no insight to lend on why the two girls weren't taken to the US hospital.  There could be many reasons, but it would all be conjecture.  Hopefully they received the best care that was available at the time.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2010, 06:50:54 PM by Yosho »

Offline funky49

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Re: who are the terrorists again?
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2010, 09:44:59 PM »
Watching the gunner unleash 50 cal rounds onto these people from the safety of the skies was almost like watching a video game.

So true. It's minor but I haven't played call of duty since watching the video. I've always remarked that getting hit by rounds from the sky was a crappy way to go because you're so defenseless. now i see this IRL. bad.
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Offline funky49

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Re: who are the terrorists again?
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2010, 09:54:00 PM »
trained and experienced eye, it's obvious that some of the personnel on the street were armed (I saw 1 rifle and 1 RPG), that there was a US patrol in the vicinity, and at approximately 4:00 min in the video, one person with something dark and tube shaped in his hands is peering around the corner of the building in a kneeling tactical stance (what you would expect a person getting ready for an RPG shot to do).  The

Nice! I think I heard that a AK47 and some RPG shells were found on the scene so good eye on you! The news this am put the video in perspective, that it was a really crappy time for us in Baghdad at the time. I saw the guy kneel on the corner of the wall and thought he was going to start shooting at the helocopter.

Finally, I have no insight to lend on why the two girls weren't taken to the US hospital.  There could be many reasons, but it would all be conjecture.  Hopefully they received the best care that was available at the time.

The army medic directed the wounded to a us army hospital. From there they were turned over to the Iraqi police to get them to an Iraqi hospital (which I'm sure wasn't as good).

If one takes time to think, its clear the soldiers were just doing their job. It's the cover up aftermath which is the BS element. Props to this whistleblower.
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Offline ibis

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Re: who are the terrorists again?
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2010, 03:13:15 PM »
War is ugly, unfair and even unethical at times.  It is what it is.  It takes innocent lives, it kills children, it slaughters women.  So be it.  I have no issue with videos like this.  When the ugly issues of war are served up for us on a pretty dish, we love to pick the bones clean.  We digest it off that pretty plate in our safe homes and pick them apart with no skin off our backs.  Those guys did what they had to do and I expect them to do it again if they suspected the 10 to 20 men gathering in an abandoned street where up to no good.  I applaud them for it and don't even question the US men involved.  Unfortunately innocents will always die in war. 

Offline Baiter

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Re: who are the terrorists again?
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2010, 06:14:22 PM »
As Ibis said, war means death, and thus it shouldn't be surprising when there are civilian casualties.  The article that Six posted mentioned the main points that got these civilians into this situation: none of them were wearing uniforms, markings, the van wasn't marked with a cross, so the military could not make the proper decisions. 

But let's not forget, it ceased being an Iraq vs US war when Saddam was flushed out... it's a guerrilla war, and in a guerrilla war, there are no rules for the Iraqis to follow, so one should not expect to be fighting Iraqi's in Iraqi uniforms with marked Medical vehicles driving around... these are local uprisings of militia and regular citizens.  It's a f$#ed up situation, a catch-22.
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Offline Yosho

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Re: who are the terrorists again?
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2010, 08:20:18 PM »
Jocko, there's nothing in that video to leads me to believe these were simply civilians that got caught up in a case of mistaken identity.  Quite the contrary... all of the very limited evidence provided by that video points to them being a group of insurgents.  Could they be something else?  Sure, anything's possible... as that video can only provide limited context.  What other evidence do we have?

I would agree with you that once Saddam was overturned, it ceased being a conflict between Iraq and the US.  Instead, it turned into a much more complex and much more dangerous multi point conflict with the Coalition fighting AQIZ, other foreign fighters, tribal and ethnic insurgents, and sprinkled between the two... a giant-giant dose of organized crime (can't overstate this last group enough since it's largely been unreported and unknown in the US).  As for there not being any rules for Iraqi's to follow... that's simply not true.  There were still laws for Iraqi citizens to follow and rules of engagement for US and coalition forces to follow.  Both were well known.  In 2007, Iraqi citizens (especially in Baghdad) didn't "accidentally" walk around with AK-47s, let alone an RPG.  Heck, we don't even know these were Iraqi citizens do we? 

As for insurgents not wearing uniforms, you are entirely correct.  Of course, it's not because they couldn't obtain or create uniforms, rather it's because they choose not to.  That choice allowed them to blend in and use noncombatants as shields.  Sure those tactics were more successful, but that behavior and those choices put the people of Iraq at risk.  Of course, they didn't care about noncombatants and routinely killed civilians to further their goals.  Despite that, Coalition forces went to great lengths to try and keep law abiding citizens as safe as possible. 

I'm not making a case here that the Iraq War was a wise decision or that it hasn't cost our nation and Iraq dearly.   I think only time will tell if it turns out to be a net positive for Iraq, the US, and the world.  I'm also not asserting that Coalition forces never made mistakes or had soldiers who broke the law.  What I am saying is that those were the exceptions, not the rule, and that this video (despite the activist agenda slant it was presented in) does not show improper behavior by US forces. 

It's all too easy to fall into the trap of prejudging evidence of a battle when you disagree with the wisdom of the war.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2010, 09:29:48 PM by Yosho »

Offline funky49

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Re: who are the terrorists again?
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2010, 09:42:34 AM »
Could it be these insurgents gathered around the news guys because they thought they would be 'safe' to be around?
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